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cdelsig Grasshopper
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The freezer hasn't been working for some time now. I took off the inside back panel, cleared the drain hole and de-iced the coils. Amazing it wouldn't work, eh? The drain was clogged with pieces of paint that are flaking off the steel back panel. After everything dried out - and all the popsicle sludge had been cleaned up - I pluggeed her back in and set it for 'normal.' As of this writing, it's been almost 21 hours since the restart and ice making is going fine, but my ice cream is more like a milkshake and the popsicles are mushy (I don't want anymore sludge, ya know). Do I give it more time or do I set the freezer for a lower temp (I haven't purchased a freezer thermometer yet, but my remote digital meat probe I hung inside prior to putting any goods in did read 'low' and it does read down to 32°F)? Chris |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology 
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Wait: you're saying your automatic icemaker is working but your ice cream is mushy? That's odd because the icemaker won't make unless the freezer temp is below 17F. Here's whatcha do: 1. Use a thermometer to measure the freezer temp. Post that temperature. 2. post your model number. |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Model# ET20DKXSN01 It's a 19.9 ft3 fridge that is guaranteed to be 9½ years old (inherited with the house and the previous owners hadn't bought any appliances, so they inherited it, too). It is almond and not bisque (or biscuit for those KitchenAid lovers), so that makes it 12-15 years old anyway. I'll have to get back to you on the freezer temperature. I don't have a thermometer capable of lower than 32°F as yet. My wife has an automatic ice maker, but I don't. Well, I am the icemaker, so it's automatic for her! The cold air is introduced to the freezer compartment by vents along the entire top of the back wall. The ice area is 'walled off' and the top section has cold air vented right onto it. No surprise it freezes first. We keep the ice cream directly under the ice making area (could this be why it doesn't freeze (there is less cold air circulating because of the ice area)? That would explain the ice cream, but not the cans of concentrated juice in the door. I don't even have the freezer section ½-full because I wanted it to reach temperature faster and all. I will be moving the ice cream to see if this is more of a location problem. Additionally, the ice cream is softer now than before I de-iced the coils. Chris p.s. This is the first place I've seen (except on my Office Suite of products) with a superscript and subscript buttons! Bravó! |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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cdelsig wrote: Model# ET20DKXSN01 Couldn't get that model number to pull up, re-check it. |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Rechecked. Posted model# is accurate. I tried to pull up a manual online at whirlpool. The item came up with no manuals online. Chris |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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I found a ET20DKXSW01 which is probably close enough to yours. Hows that freezer temp? |
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Mad Mac Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology 
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I've run into this sort of issue before. That little section under the ice shelf is intended only for storage of cubes. As you correctly state, it gets little airflow. Take a look at this picture which shows it in its "original" layout: |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Mad Mac, Thanks for the exploded view. The wall (item#26) connects to the bottom rack (#17)and also holds a smaller rack outside the ice area. Inside the ice area, I have 2 shelves (#27) and the bottom wire rack the wall is connected to. Item #30 is a 'door' that covers the front of the ice area. I have 4 cube trays that I keep on the shelves and then there is the cube hopper (#35) which sits on the rack. Under the rack (outside the ice area) is where we have traditionally kept the ice cream. I only spell this all out because I wasn't sure what you meant when you were refering to the area designed for storage of the cubes. The ice cream is still soft, both under the ice area as spelled out above and on the bottom level opposite side. The freezer compartment is not loaded much so I am not concerned about poor airflow causing this issue. It also seems like it is always on now, too. Chris |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Okay, now I'm but a itty bitty grasshoppa here. I do know that the damn thing shouldn't be iced up. Again! Yeah, the temp. is under 32°F but things aren't freezing. So, I remove the back panel again. Lo and behold, the thing is iced up again! Do I assume it wasn't dry from the first time and that is what caused this? I am going to take a hair dryer to it this time and make sure it is dry. Is this typical? Chris Xtreme Grasshoppa |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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cdelsig wrote:Is this typical? Not at all! You have a defrost system failure. Replace the defrost timer and the defrost thermostat. |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Degree of difficulty for this repair? Chris |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Any way to test the thermometer and timer? What is the time estimate on the repair? Any special tools necessary? I have the basics...hammer, bigger hammer, even bigger hammer, etc. I could typify myself as all-thumbs, but I have a table saw, so I have no more thumbs (why do you think ice is as important to me as it is?). Chris |
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Budget Appliance Repair Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man wrote:cdelsig wrote: Question for Samurai: Are you a phyic??? You already know somehow that the "Defrost Heater" is ok??? or are we just ASS U Ming that the heater is ok???? Chris you need to check the "Defrost Heater" for continuity first to make sure it's not the problem, if it ohms out ok then do as Samuria says "Replace the DEFROST TIMER & DEFROST T-STAT" |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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Budget Appliance Repair wrote: Question for Samurai: Are you a phyic??? You already know somehow that the "Defrost Heater" is ok??? or are we just ASS U Ming that the heater is ok???? This is a Whirlpool refrigerator with a calrod defrost heater. How many of these have you ever replaced in your lifetime? For my part, I've replaced exactly zero. The problem is either the defrost thermostat or the defrost timer. Both are inexpensive parts and easy to replace. Good service practice recommends replacing both parts when one goes bad to prevent a problem down the road. I'm not a psychic, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Exress last night.  Last edited on Tue Apr 19th, 2005 12:52 pm by Samurai Appliance Repair Man |
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Budget Appliance Repair Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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Are you telling me that you've never seen the end burn off one of those calrod heaters in a Whirlpool. Can't say I can remember ever having one burn out with no signs of being bad, but can't even remember how many I've seen that the end complete shorts out somehow and burns up causing much black sot and smoke all around the area of the black rubber end of the calrod wiring. |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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Budget Appliance Repair wrote: Are you telling me that you've never seen the end burn off one of those calrod heaters in a Whirlpool. No, I told you I never replaced one. Since cal rod heaters fail in such spectacular fashion, leaving black soot and smoke all over the freezer, it's obvious when they fail-- no meter required... unless you rode the short bus to school and have lots of spare time on your hands. The one case of a failed cal rod defrost heater I saw was on a 20 year old Whirlpool fridge. The customer wisely opted to throw it out and buy a newer, more energy efficient unit. Last edited on Wed Apr 20th, 2005 01:21 pm by Samurai Appliance Repair Man |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Based on recent posts, I do believe I can rule out a failed calrod heater. I surely would have noticed the soot when I opened the freezer up and certainly black smoke prior to that. The lower element in my oven burned out once. I was pre-heating the oven for dinner and saw flickering light from the window. Imagine my surprise when I saw a flame candystriping the element. Neat. Also called for immediate shutoff and replacement two days later (Thanksgiving at the in-laws came first). I can only assume the lower elements in a GE range are calrod like the burner coils. I will be replacing the timer and thermo in the near future. Until then I will enjoy my ice cream mousse. Blech. Chris |
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FatMan Master Appliantologist
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Hi C, It seems to me that your unit is Frosting up too quick(frost not ice) right. If it's frost covering the whole evaporator also check your refrigerator door gasket and the freezer door gasket, also because you say your ice cream is mousse check the condensor coil underneath or behind and next to the compressor and make sure that the condensor fan is running. GoodLuck, FatMan:banana: Ken'sApplianceService Ken Jones Rootstown,Ohio |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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FatMan, Icing up is the problem. I thawed it out Friday and it was iced up again Monday. I would have to imagine that's too fast. I have checked the gasket. While it looks almost moldy in some areas, it seems to seal all around. I have not checked the fresh food area since I haven't really had much of a problem (though it isn't as cold as it was prior to Friday). All the fans I have seen in the unit (behind the back wall in the freezer, under the fresh food section) all seem to work just fine. Once I thawed out the freezer coils and unclogged the drain, the excess water drained down into the pan beneath the unit which is now dry. That seems to be working as it should. Chris p.s. Glad to see a fellow Ohioan. |
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The Seven Master Appliantologist
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cdelsig wrote:I will be replacing the timer and thermo in the near future. NOW is "the near future". Take action NOW!  |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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At the risk of sounding like a moron (which is not too far off in this particular field), I did replace the 10-hour timer with the 8-hour universal timer recommended. As far as the thermometer goes, though...uh...I didn't find it. I need Batman (TV show with Adam West, not the current manifestations) signage telling me everything. Searching the Sears parts website didn't show a thermometer as a part. Yeah, I know, it has to have one. I did find something that may have been the thermo, but it was different. It is above the coils in the freezer section - the top 3rd of which was thickly frosted all the way across - with two wires connected to the wiring "cluster" and a ground from the cluster, to the fan motor (the replacement has no area for a ground, btw). The timer was quite different, too. I found the timer (even with a Batman sign) and it is darn near twice the size of the new one. I understand there have been at least a couple innovations and technological advances from when this was made to now that could concievably resulted in a vastly smaller timer. My main concern is the lack of a grounding "prong" for the wire to clip on like the original. Is this a problem? After you clean up the beer you just blew out your nose when you read of my incompetence, would you counsel me in this? Chris p.s. What is the 'dial' on the bottom of the timer for? Is it a manual on/off that you need to actuate initially? I was disheartened when I plugged the fridge back in, turned it on and got nothing in return. Once I turned the timer 'dial' one click, the fridge came on. |
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FatMan Master Appliantologist
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Hi C, The part you found above the coils is the defrost thermostat, if you jump the two wires together going to this part the heater should come on, don't worry about the ground wire it's grounded when you clip it on to the evaporator The dial on the timer is there to so you can manually advance the timer(no problem with you doing that)advance the timer until you hear the first click this will put it in the defrost cycle You mentioned mold on the gasket, sure sign of air leak. Check the refrigerator door gasket on the bottom, can almost quarantee it's torn. You didn't mention if you pulled the unit out and checked the condensor fan motor and if condensor coil was clean, and how hot is that compressor? Good Luck, FatMan Ken's Appliance Service Rootstown, Ohio Last edited on Thu Apr 21st, 2005 01:16 pm by FatMan |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Fatman, Pulled fridge out in January to clean the coils and was quite disgusted with my findings. Earlier this month, I vacuumed the coils again. With a dog and an old fridge, I think I'm going to try to keep the "every 3 months" schedule going. All fans are working, at least as far as I can tell. When you ask 'how hot?,' are you looking for an actual degree or just a "by feel" reading? I suppose resting my digital probe on the compressor would give me some reading, but I don't know how accurate. I'm curious to see what the fridge temperatures are this evening since that gives the timer almost 20 hours to stabilize things. I will go at the thermometer either tonight (depending on my disposition...was up very late last night) or my day off tomorrow. There is one tear in the fresh food gasket. Bottom corner. The worst area, visually, is the top section of the fresh food door. Methinks that has more to do with lack of cleaning than a tear. This fridge doesn't have to last more than a couple years. I will be inheriting my parent's SxS when they remodel their kitchen and that could be any time now so I really don't want to drop another $55 for a gasket if I don't need to. If we decide to keep this fridge and get rid of the one in the basement, I don't think I'll question the gasket purchase. I will be purchasing a refrigerator thermometer (to keep in the freezer or the fresh food area) tomorrow so I can keep track of temperature. Thanks for all the help. Chris |
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FatMan Master Appliantologist
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Hello again C, Repace the defrost thermostat and see if you can heat up that door gasket to try and straighten it out, if your going to fix it let's do it right and replace those gaskets. Remember you can get those parts here. As far as the temperature of the compressor goes, as long as you can put your hand on it and not get burnt  |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Well, the thermostat is replaced. I also bought a fridge/freezer thermometer. About 3 hours ago, the freezer registered 25°F and the fridge registered 42°F 15 minutes later. I set the fridge to cool more with its own dial and the temperature at this moment is 39°F. I am happy with those readings. I am going to have to check the freezer temperature again, but I am making sure the thermometer is reading right (let it come to room temp and rate it against a digital thermometer). I want to make sure I have this correct, too. My fridge has two controls, one for the freezer and one for the fridge. The fridge dial has an electronic part connected to it and the freezer dial has a connection to a baffle that changes the amount of cold air from the freezer that comes into the fridge. Is that right or does my refrigerator have it's own set of coils for cooling? I can see it would be easier to make the freezer cold with the baffle not allowing as much cold air into the fridge (which is what happens when you turn the dial towards "colder"). Is it correct that the compressor is controlled by the fridge control dial? That is, does the fridge run more/more often (everything else being equal) with the fridge dial turned towards "colder?" Chris |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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Nice work getting the parts installed. More information on setting refrigerator controls here. |
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The Seven Master Appliantologist
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cdelsig wrote:Is that right or does my refrigerator have it's own set of coils for cooling? No. Only one evaporator coil in the freezer compartment Is it correct that the compressor is controlled by the fridge control dial? Yes. That is, does the fridge run more/more often (everything else being equal) with the fridge dial turned towards "colder?" Yes. |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Well, now I have quite a bit more insight in the workings of a refrigerator. Thanks, everyone, for all the help. One last question (at least for now)...at what friggin' temperature does ice cream freeze?!? The freezer is currently around 21° and the ice cream is still soup. I wonder if this current tub is long past freezing again. I'll have to check the freezer in the basement. Chris |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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This is a good heat transfer problem, worked many like this in Heat Transfer class in undergrad. The temp of the freezer doesn't tell you the temp of the icecream. It will take some determinate period of time for the icecream to pull down. That time is calculated by: q=k*A*Delta(T) where: q= the rate of heat transfer in joules/sec or BTUH k= the appropriate heat transfer coefficient A= the surface area of the object being chilled Delta(T)= the change in time from state 1 to state 2, in seconds This is simplistic, of course, because it allows only for conductive cooling. In a freezer, convective cooling would be a significant factor and would further reduce the pull down time. Go ahead and make a first-brush calculation, state all assumptions, and I'll check your work.  P.S., as anyone who's made homemade icecream knows, you have to get the icecream slurry to 27F or below before it begins to harden. Last edited on Sat Apr 23rd, 2005 01:29 am by Samurai Appliance Repair Man |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Okay, so... ΔT = q / (k * A) Since there is an insulation factor of the carton and that is completely surrounding the ice cream (unless we would open the container, but that would really seriously skin over the ice cream and that may be worse than eating ice cream mousse), A would have to be the entire surface area, not just the top of the ice cream. Further, wouldn't q be directly related to the difference in temperature (as the temperature differential increased, rate of cooling increases and vice versa)? So to figure this out as accurately as possible, with a changing variable, wouldn't we have to integrate somewhere in there? Where would one find k? Does it have to do with the specific gravity of the item changing temperature? Chris |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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cdelsig wrote: Where would one find k? Does it have to do with the specific gravity of the item changing temperature? Nothing to do with the body being cooled, it's dependant upon the conditions at the surface, the "film" layer. K is often determined experimentally but there are published tables available. A brief overview of the concept is presented here. |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Well, this particular part of the thread has gone a bit past my education in thermodynamics. Well, if you define "a bit" to mean at least a parsec. I haven't had much thermodynamics past high school. Calc, yes, but not thermodynamics. My freezer in the basement (which is a Hotpoint that is probably at least as old as my Whirlpool) has solid ice cream and is a frosty 9°F. So, the freezer compartment needs to be somewhere between 9°F and 21°F to cause ice cream to be hard. If I were to dial my fridge to 'as cold as possible' and close the baffle between the freezer and the fridge as far as it goes, what would be the lowest possible degree at which you would say, "the fridge is not working as it should and needs to have the refrigerant recharged or the unit needs to be scrapped?" Chris p.s. There seems to be quite a bit of integration in that equation. 'K' is defined by a changing variable and, thus, the original has at least 2. |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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cdelsig wrote: So, the freezer compartment needs to be somewhere between 9°F and 21°F to cause ice cream to be hard. You should be able to achieve 0F in your freezer-- this is the ideal temp. Freezer temp and icecream temp are two different things. It takes time for the icecream (and everything else) to reach steady state. That was the point of our excursion into heat transfer. |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Freezer temp and icecream temp are two different things. It takes time for the icecream (and everything else) to reach steady state. That was the point of our excursion into heat transfer. That was understood. I am also happy to report that the 'mousse' is now much firmer than it was last night.  I'm still not sure at what temperature ice cream has to be to harden. Geez, maybe I'll have to get a 3rd multitester and make sure this one has temperature probes, or maybe I'll get one of those infrared "guns." At least now I will be checking the temp of the ice cream and not the freezer temp. Chris |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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I already told you about the temp at which icecream hardens. You musta missed it. From my first post on heat transer: Samurai Appliance Repair Man wrote: P.S., as anyone who's made homemade icecream knows, you have to get the icecream slurry to 27F or below before it begins to harden. |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Egads! My normal powers of obvious observations failed me on that! Missed the post script. Chris |
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asteysn2 Sublime Master of Appliantology 
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Or another version of the equation is: Q= M C (delta) T Where Q is the amount of heat gained or lost in BTUH M being the Mass of the object (ice cream) C being the specific heat of the object where water is equal to ONE and delta T being temp difference If I were to open up my ASHRAE book, and look for specific heat of various substances under food, there would prob. be a value for milk, but don't know about Ice Cream Assuming the Ice cream to have a number of 1.5, the mass being one pound of ice cream and the product is at 26 degree and would like it at zero degrees we would need to remove about 39 BTUh per pound/ hour |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Okay, now I'm again not happy. Somewhere between the freezer and the refrigerator, there is a problem. I have two freezer/fridge thermometers so I can watch the temperatures while adjusting hte dials. So, I'm going and I get the freezer down to around 10°F and the fridge part gets down to 34°F. Well, that is a tad too cold for the fridge compartment, so I adjust the dial down a little. The freezer jumps up to 12°F and the fridge moves up to 46°F. Now, I can't get the durn fridge down to under 40°! I have the fridge temp. dial cranked all the way to cold and the baffle between the freezer and the fridge open as much as possible. No change. Still at 12°F/48°F! Where do I start looking for the source of my woes? What am I looking for (there is a slight layer of frost on the freezer rear wall around where the coils are)? What do I do about this? Chris "Silly grasshoppa, repairs aren't for kids!" |
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The Seven Master Appliantologist
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cdelsig, Let us start from square one: 1) Have you replaced the defrost timer? 2) Have you replaced the defrost thermostat? 3) If both (1) and (2) are "yes", then goto (4): otherwise goto (1) 4) Adjust both the fridge and freezer controls to normal (mid-points). 5) Let it run for at least 2 hours before taking the initial temp readings. 6) Then take temp reading at no more than once per hour. Too often will warm up the freezer and fridge. 7) It takes 12-24 hours to get steady-state temperatures. 8) If it is not cold enough, adjust the controls "colder" at "small steps" until freezer temp (0 to 5 F) and fridge temp (34 to 40 F). 9) Report the result. |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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The Seven, After replacing both the defrost timer and the defrost thermostat, I put it into normal start according to the label inside the fridge. As of Friday, the 22nd, I was getting good readings in the fridge and higher than desired in the freezer (21°F). By slowly adjusting the dials, I got my freezer down to 10° but then my fridge got too cold (34°). In trying to readjust, the fridge temp jumped into the 40's and now I can't get it down. I have reset it to 'normal' for 24 hours. The freezer stayed around 10-12°F and the fridge didn't drop below 46°. Adjusting the fridge dial to colder has done nothing and opening the baffle between the freezer and fridge has done nothing (it has been in that position for more than 24 hours and read 42° and 12° this morning). After I wrote my last post, I saw and read the post about the kenmore fridge that isn't getting cold enough. I have the same issue. There is almost no airflow coming out of the vent between my freezer and the fridge though there is normal airflow in the freezer. Since my defrost heater is a calrod and would be obvious if needed replacing (according to Samurai and Willie on this site) I don't think that is it. If my coils are full of frost, which is what I suspect with the presence of frost on the back wall of my freezer, what does that mean? Could I have a bad thermostat? If the drain hole isn't blocked, what then? What should I be looking for, considering the timer and thermostat have been replaced? Chris |
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The Seven Master Appliantologist
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cdelsig wrote:If my coils are full of frost, which is what I suspect with the presence of frost on the back wall of my freezer, what does that mean? It sounds you still have a defrost problem. Could you take a photo of the frost on the evaporator coil? I did replace the 10-hour timer with the 8-hour universal timer recommended. Are you sure that the connection of the new timer is correct? For incorrected connection, the timer would always stay in "cooling cycle" (or in "defrost cycle"). Do you know how to measure the resistance of the defrost heater? To verify the heater is OK. Do you know how to measure the voltage at the heater terminals when the timer is manually advanced to defrost cycle? To verify the proper voltage to the heater. |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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Sounds like it's just a matter of getting the controls set at the optimum settings. Here's a good explanation of how the controls in the refrigerator work. |
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referman Grasshopper
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hey guys lets get back to basics here would it not make sense to by pass the def tstat and advance the timer to see if the heater energizes ive replaced a few calrod heaters in my day though i think there more reliable than glass tube heaters Last edited on Sun May 1st, 2005 06:45 pm by referman |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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He's installed a new defrost thermostat and defrost timer. |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology 
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Ice cream freezes at 10*. When you replaced the defrost timer and the defrost termination thermostat did you be sure to defrost the evaperator coils again?? Also, did you purchase the W.P. part number 482493 defrost timer??? Whirlpool ref.s have two different systems, on time defrost and compressor cumulative run time defrost. The FSP timer has the flying lead, which has to be installed on the timer terminals according to how your ref. is set up from the factory. The instruction sheet included in the timer package explains how to tell where the black wire is to be installed onto the timer terminals. If this timer is wired wrong it will either not ever advance into defrost or will go into defrost and not come back out, will just stay dead except for the light. Tell us which timer you installed and if it is the correct timer, be sure the black lead is on the right terminal. When you get every thing installed properly, just set your controls in the middle and let it cycle by itself as will take at least 24 hours to cool down and stabalize every time you adjust the controls. If the defrost heater and bi-metal are good, turning the timer manually into defrost will activate the defrost heater and it will glow red within 2-5 minutes, which you can see thru the bottom of the evaperator panel on a SxS. ref. .If it does not come on your defrost heater could be defective, we have seen several of these go bad. I believe you need to check which defrost timer you installed into this unit, and make sure you defrosted the coils again after you replaced the b-metal, please....Pegi Last edited on Wed May 4th, 2005 02:27 pm by Pegi |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Pegi, Well, I am not sure which timer I bought (and I won't have time to take 'er apart until tomorrow, if then) and I did follow the directions for installing the flying lead according to the directions. The timer I put on, I remember, was an 8-hour timer (which the one I took off was a 10-hour timer and had what I consider 2 flying leads). I did defrost the coils when I replaced the timer and again when I replaced the thermostat (had to just to be able to access the plug-in for the thermostat). What I didn't get was that the fridge worked right for a couple days and the fridge got too cold as I was incrementally changing the dials. I lowered the fridge setting and closed the baffle some (to get the compressor to run less and to reduce the airflow between the freezer and the fridge (fridge temp was around 36° and I was aiming for 38°). The freezer temp rose from around 10° to 16° and the fridge temp jumped to 48° and I noticed frost formation on the back wall of the freezer (in the location of the condenser coils). I unplugged the fridge and left it that way for 15 minutes and replugged it in. I set the dials for 'normal' and waited 24+ hours. I got readings of 48°/18°. I made small changes and now sit at '7' (with '8' as coldest) and 'B' (only 'A' allows more airflow between fresh and frozen) from initial starting off point of '4' and 'C.' This evening (after 20 hours), the readins were 42°/19° and the frost buildup is more now than before I saw the condenser coils for the first time ever. I will have to look at 'er again Friday. I'll post my findings when I get find them. Chris |
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PK Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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A refrigerator with a defrost problem will cool fine for 2-3 days until the frost builds up again. Might want to check the defrost heater to see if it is working. Loosen the cover over the evaperator and make sure it is frosted. Advance the defrost timer into defrost by turning the little dial to the right slowly till you hear a louder click and the box goes dead except for the light. Do this slowly because the defrost cycle is only 3 clicks. If you go too fast and go back into the cooling mode, just turn it again to get it into defrost. Then watch the defrost heater to see if it comes on, gets red. This might take 3-5 minutes. If it comes on, it is good as is the bi-metal. If it does not come on either the heater is bad or the bi-metal is bad or not wired in right. But I would suspect the heater is bad since the bi-metal is new. If the defrost heater comes on, this means the timer is wired wrong. If the heater comes on let me know which terminal the flying lead is on, 1 or 2. The replacement FSP timer is the 8 hour timer, as it replaces the 12 and 10 hour timers as W/P decided that was too long between defrost cycles and could cause problems. I hope this helps you some, and will be waiting for your reply. Thanks for your reply. Pegi |
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FatMan Master Appliantologist
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Hi C, Still here I see. Have you ever checked those door gaskets? I wasn't to wild about the mold you said was on them. How hot to the touch is that compressor? Another thought is whether the condensor fan motor is turning fast enough. Ken"s Appliance Service Rootstown, OhiO |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Fatman, I have yet to replace the fridge gasket (I can't find any breaches of the freezer gasket) and the compressor isn't too hot. Well, I can keep my whole hand on it for 20+ seconds without any smoke, screaming or any real pain, so I assume that means it's okay (previously, you mentioned touching it without getting burned). Tonight or tomorrow (depending on how tired I am tonight, lol) I am going to open 'er back up and check the defrost heater as Pegi recommended and also see if I can find a blockage between the two compartments. At what temperature(s) should the thermometer perform its functions? I noticed when I was installing the new one it mentioned 25° and 50°, Does that mean it closes the circuit at 50° and opens it at 25°? Or is it 25° in the freezer and 50° in the fresh compartment? Chris Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to work I go! <grumble, grumble, grumble> |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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The defrost termination thermostat resets at the 25* temperature to give power to the heater during the next defrost cycle. It opens at what you say is 50* to cut the power to the heater to keep the freezer from getting too warm while the rest of the defrost time, 21 minutes, run out. Surprised at the 50* open temperature, tho. Whirlpool usually uses a 60* or 70* cut out temperature. Keep us posted about what you find. |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Here is a pic of my frosted up coils. Notice the glowing red calrod heater that has been in defrost mode for 8-10 minutes. Oh, wait. There is no red glow. Methinks there is something amiss... So, what's the next step? I think I shall perform a continuity test on the heater. Set my multimeter to 200Ω range and the reading is.<drumroll please>...21.9. Well, I guess that tells me there is something wrong there, eh? I am nearing pit crew speed when it comes to opening my freezer, emptying it and removing the back wall! Yipes! Chris Attachment: Frosty.jpg (Downloaded 105 times) |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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You read 21.9 ohms on you defrost heater? The spec is 23.646 ohms... you're WAY off!  Just kidding. That's a good heater, it ain't the problem. |
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exsearsguy Sublime Master of Appliantology
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Try turning your fridge off then right back on. If you can keep your hand on that compressor for 20 seconds or longer, you're tougher than I am.If that comp comes right back on,I'd suspect an inefficient compressor. You don't happen to live in the south where it's starting to heat up already. |
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FatMan Master Appliantologist
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O hi C, Nice picture, try doing what Pegi said(I think I love her) with a higher limit themostat, and check Those door gaskets, especially the refrigerator door gasket on the bottom. Also try the dollar bill test, what's that you ask. Take a dollar and close the door on it and slide it around the gasket from top to bottom and side to side should be snug to the pull know slop |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Since the problem isn't the heater and it doesn't heat up when cycled to defrost, what is my next area of investigation? Btw, since I did thaw the coils last night, today's temp.s are 20°/40° after 16 hours, so my entire problem is related to defrosting (which I suppose is good to have determined). Chris |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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If the cover was off of the evaperator when you put this into defrost, the bi-metal would have cut the defrost heater off too soon, as it would have opened too soon. But I just re-read your post and saw where you said it did not come on. Re-try this with the cover in place but loose so you can take a peek now and then to see if it is on. You will hear popping and hissing when it is on because of the defrosting water hitting the heater, and I really believe the bi-metal should be a higher temperature than 50* on a W.P. Ref. . Recheck your connections at the new bi-metal. Now if it defrosts ok with the back cover in place when you manually advance the timer into defrost, this tells you the bi-metal and heater are good. Might be too low of a temperature tho. But this would take us back to checking this new timer, which one you installed and where the black lead was installed. And to make sure you put the right wires from the ref. onto the right terminals on the timer. Was puzzled about your statement the new timer was larger than the original since the new FSP timers are very small, white and with a clear plastic cover over the motor area so you can visually see if the gears are turning. Please keep us posted. Pegi Last edited on Fri May 6th, 2005 08:02 pm by Pegi |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Pegi, I did purchase the 482493 defrost timer kit. I installed the timer with the lead on 2. the schematic on the fridge's paperwork matched that figure best in the timer's paperwork. Chris |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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Ok, carefully remove the timer from the housing while the box is running and see if you see the gears turning under the clear plastic housing please....Pegi |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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I noticed it was while I was dickering with it last night. Chris |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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Hummmm, ok, advance it into defrost again and see if the heater is coming on. If it is not, there is something wrong with the heater or the bi-metal, would seem like, as there is nothing else in this defrost system. Or a wiring problem from the timer to the bi-metal. Did you go position to position on the defrost timer wires to the terminals, since some of them the numbers are reversed??? Last edited on Fri May 6th, 2005 08:28 pm by Pegi |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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The terminals on the original line up the same as the terminals on the new. The wires are in a plastic 'plug' that keeps them in line with the terminals. I didn't change the configuration of the wires in the plug and each wire seemed to attach to the terminals. Chris |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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Good, some ref.s do not have the plastic plug on block, so could be a problem. Only thing left to do is advance this timer into defrost and see if the heater does in fact come on. Pegi |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Pegi, What purpose is the flying lead? How am I to know if the heater comes on after I advance the timer if I can't open it up? Will I be able to feel the heat through the back wall? How long does a defrost cycle last? If I wait until the refrigerator comes back on and expose the evaporator coils, if the coils are frosted (not likely to be heavy since it was defrosted completely 24 hours ago) at all, does that mean the heater did come on? Sooo many questions! lol! Chris |
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PK Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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The flying lead is to make the timer do 2 different things, according to how the box is wired from the factory. If the original design is on time every 8 hours defrost the black lead will be on # 1, which it defrosts every 8 yours for 21 minutes. If the black lead is on # 2 it means it defrosts every 8 hours COMPRESSOR RUN TIME, for 21 minutes. If it is wired wrong, the ref will not work right, The timer will not advance into defrost or it will go into defrost and not come back out again, since the cumulative compressor run time gives power thru the bi-metal. That is why it is important to wire it right. To see if the heater comes on, you can loosen the back panel, just prop it up there, so you can pull it out and peak behind it to see if the heater gets red. And then just set it pack in place if it does come on so the bi-metal will not open too soon. But you can look now and then to see what is happening. You wil really have to advance that timer after the bi-metal re-sets to give power to the heater to see if it comes on. If it comes on i would have to say try putting the black lead on the #1 termnal and see how it does. If it does not come on, you have a bad heater, bad bi-metal, or bad wires from the timer to the bi-metal or bad wires from the bi-metal to the heater. Let me know how this goes.......Pegi |
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exsearsguy Sublime Master of Appliantology
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Chris,if you defrosted this fridge yesterday and only 20 degrees in the freezer,you've got problems beside defrost problems. Check your condenser fan motor. You,ve changed your timer so it's not likely that the heater is cycling on the defrost t'stat. Is your evaporator fan motor running? And if it is check and make sure that somebody hasn't changed it and put the blade on backwards.If you didn't have a heater,timer or t'stat this thing ought to be cold today. |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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Chris,I remembered something this morning around 2 A/M, when most of my best thoughts come to me. On these W/P defrost timers that black lead has caused us numerous problems because the slot that slides onto the timer terminal is too wide and does not make contact with the terminal. See if you can easily slide that black wire up and down on the terminal of the timer, but be sure to up-plug the box before doing this. If you can move it take some plyers and crimp down on both sides of the slot a little to make it smaller so it will be hard to slide down onto the teminal so it will make good contact. We have been having to do this with every timer before we install them into the frig. Pegi Last edited on Sat May 7th, 2005 04:38 pm by Pegi |
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The Seven Master Appliantologist
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cdelsig wrote:At what temperature(s) should the thermometer perform its functions? I noticed when I was installing the new one it mentioned 25° and 50°,
This is a "defrost thermostat" with cut-in (ON) at 25F and cut-out (OFF) at 50F. Most new Whirlpool fridges use a cut-out temperature at 60 to 70F. 50F cut-out is too low for Whirlpool fridge and will lead to "insufficient defrost heating" which will lead to the building up of frost. 8-10 min defrost heating ON-time is a bit short. Would normally expect 10-15 min out of a period of 21 min. Note that "Heavy frost" is building up in your picture. You still have "minor" defrost problem. |
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PK Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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Chris, if you were to by-pass the bi-metal as a test to see of the whole evaperator would defrost, watching carefully so you could turn the timer back out of defrost when all of the ice is gone so you do not melt all of the plastic in the freezer, this might indicate that 50* bi-metal is just to low. This might be cutting the heater off to soon. However from the looks of your evap in the photo the bi-metal is encased in ice so does not look like it could have cut the heater out. There has to be a very simple reason for no or incomplete defrost, something is getting overlooked. If you advance the timer into defrost it should come out within 21 minutes and the cooling system will kick back on. Is this happening??? If the box does not come out of defrost in about 21 minutes the timer is wired wrong, the black lead would have to be changed from terminal #2 to terminal #1. This is assuming you are advancing the timer till the loud click and no further. Pegi |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Pegi, How do I bypass the t-stat? As of this evening (checked it when I got home from work), the freezer is 13° and the fresh compartment is 48°! There was very little air flow from the freezer to the fridge, pretty darn sure it's iced up evaporator coils at work again. So, my first post was 4/16 and here we are just over 3 weeks later and I have solved one problem (the freezer is plenty cold), but I have not solved the other (fridge is still not staying cold) and I do believe the coils are icing up worse (irrespective of frequency) than the first time I opened 'er up. How often does this stuff happen to you all in the field? I saw a mpeg of a soldier dropping a grenade in a topload washer. It is giving me ideas. Chris |
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Rackshaw Grasshopper
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Could the problem be that the defrost drain is somehow plugged up enough such that it the water backs up, freezes, clogs up the the conduit between the freezer and the refrigerator, thus preventing air from getting to the refrigerator? Just a thought. How'd you unclog it I haven't the foggiest. |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Rackshaw, First time I opened the freezer up, the drain was plugged (which is what I thought the problem was). The back wall of my freezer is painted metal and the paint is flaking off. The flakes worked their way into the drain and clogged it up solid. Since I cleared the drain and taken off all the loose paint, I've had no drainage problems. As a matter of fact, I used too much water thawing out the evap coils and my water dish overflowed! Unfortunately, a plugged drain isn't my issue. Chris |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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How fast the evaperator frosts over depends on how much moisture is gettng in the frig. How many times the doors are opened, how humid it is in your area right now, and how much hot food is put into the box. The frost/ice is just moisture inside the ref, that is freezing on the coils. On the defrost termination thermostat in the freezer, it usually has 2 wires. One wire in the ref. to the bi-metal the other side of the bi-metal to the heater, and the other side of the heater going back to the ref. to complete the circut. The wire to the bi-metal you would temporarily connect to the heater wire that the other side of the bi-metal went to. In other words, just remove the bi-metal from the freezer and take the wire that went to the bi-metal from the frig straight to the heater, just for a test. If the heater comes on and defrosts the box, you know this bi-metal could be the problem., or the timer is wired wrong. when the timer is turned to defrost you would have to have a broken heater since you have replaced the timer unless there is a broken wire in the circut somewhere/ .. If you trun the timer to defrost right now without doing anything to the defrost system and it defrost the coils ok, then the timer is wired wrong. We have never had the problems you are having since we know how to test everything and replace what is needed. |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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Question Chris. When you discovered the defrost problem, why did you change the defrost timer in the first place? Do you know that it was bad? Or did someone tell you it could be the problem and replace it. Just cerious. Pegi |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Pegi, I described my problem(s) and first response was from Samurai to replace the timer and t-stat. Since one, in his experiences, was most likely to blame and standard ops are to replace one with the other, that was his advice. There was a question about the calrod heater and a description of the most common symptoms of a calrod heater failure (lots of smoke and soot, which are nonexistent in my particular case). So, if I connect the two wires leading to either side of the t-stat, that will have the same effect as completing the circuit and turning on the heater, right? Additionally, there is no break in the circuit from the temp increase, so I should be able to have the freezer wide open for full viewing? Is there any way the t-stat could be miswired? All the wiring in the evaporator area is controlled by those plastic clips. While that is fantastic and all, I didn't notice this beauty prior to removing the wires from the housing and connecting the new t-stat. Figuring the only options were open or closed, it didn't seem, nor does it seem now, that there would be an issue. Just want to cover my bases. Additionally, there is an unconnected 'plug' in the area of my timer and fridge controls. I can see no possible place they could have connected and the only thing I remember disconnecting in there was the old timer and that has been reconnected to the new. The old timer has no plug end to match the loose plug, either. Curiously, at least to my untrained mind, the ends are circular as if they were to go onto prongs, as opposed to sliding over blades like the rest of the wiring. Chris p.s. I read 9°/50° when I got home from work today. Nothing quenches your thirst like a 50° beverage, except any beverage colder than that! |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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Not sure about that spare plug, but have read somewhere about it, seems it is eather a test plug of sorts or a plug in for a light or something, just ignore it. As far as the calrod heater, we have never seen one go up in smoke. Usually just breaks, will have a bad spot on it, or will look fine but is broken internally. Looking at it might not tell. Yes with the back off and the bi-metal bypassed you will be able to watch to see if the heater comes on and should not melt anything, but watch carefully because when the ice is gone could warp your fan blace or fan schrol/housing, so do not walk off if the heater comes on. If the heater does come on you know the bi-metal is bad or no power from the timer to the heater for some reason. Might indicate the timer is not advancing, wired wrong. Could you provide me with the wire colors that plug onto the timer from the frig?? I can look to see where the black wire should be. Your first plan of repair should have been to advance your original defrost timer into defrost to see if the heater came on. If it did you would know the timer was not advancing, and to replace it. If it did not come on you would have tested your heater and bi-metal to see which one was dead. So simple. I just hate what you are going thru right now. With the no defrost problem and long run time because the food side is warm, your compressor is running too much, is over heating. I hope is is not getting too damaged with the oil getting too hot all of the time. Let us get this problem solved, friend. Pegi |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Pegi, I did run a continuity test on the heater (unplugged the heater and probed that end). It read 21.9 ohms. I am going to have to bypass the tstat. I still have the original timer, if that makes a difference, The original tstat is long gone. I cut the wires very close to the unit so I could have more to hardwire the new tstat into (since everthing is 'plugged' in). Once this gets resolved, how do I go about getting a thermostat that goes up to 60° or 70°? Chris |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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The correct part numbers for the W/P bi-metal is 4387499 which any parts supplier would have, including this site. The temperature of the original would have been on the part, like L70-40, so not sure what temp it was. Your temp might be ok, just seems low for W/P. If it is the wrong temperature it would still give power to the defrost heater if they both are good, just might turn the heater off too soon before all of the ice is removed. I still need the wire colors to the defrost timer from the box. |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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You said you still had the original timer, which terminal numbers were the 2 external wires going to??? |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Pegi, The original leads were on 2 and 3 (which are the outside posts). I haven't opened the fridge back up to see the colors of the wiring to the timer. I will be doing so tonight, along with bypassing the tstat to see what happens. Chris |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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OK that tells me the timer is wired right  good to go there.... |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Pegi, Okay, so I advance the timer to defrost (which I actually have the flying lead on 1; I didn't think it was working on 2, so I took a leap). Now, I may not be the smartest guy on the face of the Earth and I am not "glowing red - black" colorblind, but I'll be darned if the calrod was still jet black and yet the lower portion of the evaporator coils were warm enough to catch my attention when pulling off that back wall! That would point to the tstat turning off the heater at too low a temp, right? Do I move the lead back to 2? Is inside humidity the problem? The gasket on my fridge door has 3 breaches: one pencil-eraser sized erosion on the hinge side where it hits metal trim piece on the inside of the fridge; another erosion of the same size on the hinge side from what, I don't have a clue, and a 2" tear on the lower corner opposite the hinge side). Could that be the root of my problem? I have also noticed the doors sag. The freezer door might be an eighth inch lower on the non-hinge upper corner and the fridge door looks to be a quarter to 3 eighths low as compared to the hinge side. Could this be the offender? How would one go about fixing that? Should I feel like I'm getting closer? It seems like each discovery I make is like another door I figure out how to open, expecting to find the exit, but just finding another door with a different lock to open. Chris |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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When you said te orignal timer was on 2 and 3 this indicated your timer was wired right unless the timer that was in there was wrong. Now it does sound like the heater is turning off too soon. Let us put the lead back on # 2 and do the by-pass the bi-metal test. The bi-metal temp may be too low, or it is defective or it might not be on the right place on the evap coil. Could have a bad connection somewhere. Would only take a few to do this test..The ice on the coils is caused by moisture in the frig, too much hot moist food put in the box, seals not sealing good. Seal the breaks with silacone to see of this helps. But let us see if the bi-metal is the evil twin here also. Pegi |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Okay, lead put back on 2. Tstat bypassed. Boy, did that get hot! Never glowed and it sure did seem to take a long time to defrost the top 1½" of evaporator coil. I have to assume the defrost would have been more efficient with the back wall off, but it still took some time. What does all this mean? Chris |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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The back wall covering the evaperator keeps the heat going up to defrost the frost on the coils. Now did the ice defrost? You need to remember when this defrost system is working correctly and defrosts 2-3 times a day, there is very little frost on the coils and NO blocks of ice. I have to assume there was a lot more ice than would normally be on the evaperator. This would be more than the defrost system could remove during a normal 21 minute defrost cycle. If it did defrost the ice with the bi-metal by-passed, you need to consider this might be causing the problem. Get the correct bi-metal, make sure the evap is not iced over and get the system put back together. Then put your controls in the mid position and let it cycle. Monitor the temps in both sides to see if you can see a problem developing again. Remember when the defrost system is working properly the freezer will get up to around 30*-40* when it is in defrost so do not be alarmed with this. You might have gottem a defective timer, but that is unlikely. Try all of this and keep me posted of the developments please. Pegi |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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So far so good. The freezer is hanging around 16° and the fridge is around 38°. This is about the time things have started going south. I will keep an eye on things and will have the opportunity to be more responsive over the next week (vacation, whoo hoo!). Chris |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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hummmmm, 16 and 38 is not good, but might have had enough time to settle down and get to correct temperature. Yes, monitor the temps. If it freezes up again, do the defrost the coils drill again and let us try the lead on #1 just incase the one in the box was wired wrong, but not likely. You might just be getting an excess of frost/ice build up due to too much moisture getting into the frig, but why all of a sudden??? Is perhaps the heater is not getting hot enough, but you stated it is getting hot, so............ Yes please let us know how it is going. 0-10 and 35-38 is your target when it is not in defrost and the doors are not opened a lot. Check temps first thing in the a/m when it has been closed up all night, unless your family does a lot of sleep-walking to the frig!!! Pegi |
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exsearsguy Sublime Master of Appliantology
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Chris,the ice crystals ,when they form are they large or small. Large ice crystals form slowly and that is a sign of an inefficient comp. When you posted the pic of your evaporator the ice at the top looked very large to me.That is why I suggested it a week ago. Also your temps arent very good and they should be right now just after a defrosting. |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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The picture of my frosted evaporator isn't ice so much as it is built up snow, so to speak. So, the crystals are small and it's not solid ice, but built up frost. I have set the fridge to run at a cooler temp, so it's now a waiting game to see what the temperature stabilizes at. I thought 38° was a good temp for the fridge and teens for the freezer. We'll have to see what happens. Chris |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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Thanks, please let us know.......... |
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cdelsig Grasshopper
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Not exactly happy with the developments. Right now the temps are: 16° and 39°. I opened the baffle to get more cold air into the fridge as it had been running jsut above 40° and dialed the fridge towards 'colder.' This was late this morning and we have used the fridge since, but not in the last 1-2 hours. If my fridge is no longer capable of cooling as low as recommended, what does that mean? Does the refrigerant need recharged (actually, it'll need to be changed over to whatever the new stuff is, if that's the case)? I can't feel any cool air leaking out around the gaskets, including the rip in the corner. Apparently, silicone caulk works well for this! I will report my findings in the morning with 6+ hours of staying closed. Chris |
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