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ApplianceGuru.com: The Samurai Appliance Repair Forums > Do-It-Yourself Appliance Repair Help > Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning (HVAC) > Rheem 21VP50 Power Vented Water Heater |
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| Moderated by: RegUS_PatOff, dkpd1581, applianceman18007260692 | Search Our Sites for More Info! |
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| Rheem 21VP50 Power Vented Water Heater | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 04:24 am |
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1st Post |
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briegg Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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Help...My water heater is intermittently failing - and I can't diagnose the problem When I realize the thing isn't working, the power vent fan is running without the burner on. I cycle the power off and then back on to initiate the 3 tries to ignite the burner here are the things I have witnessed when I turn the power off and back on: 1. a few clicking noises. My guess is that one is coming from the controller (not as loud), calling for the gas valve to open. Then, multiple louder clicks, and no ignition. 2. only the softer click (again, I'm guessing coming from the controller), followed by nothing form the gas valve, and no ignition 3. the softer click, followed by a louder click, the burner ignitess for a small period of time, and then goes out (between 2 and 40 sec), to the sound of another click 4. successful ignition that stays lit until the water is hot. The odd thing that I notice is that when I disconnect the leads to the pressure switch, scrape them a bit with a screwdriver, and reconnect them, I have a higher rate of successfully getting the heater to light. I replaced the pressure switch (~$25 - it was worth a shot), that may have improved things a bit for a while, but now it's going downhill again. The new switch came with 2 new leads - I replaced the one between the controller and the switch, but the other one that runs into a box with a cover is hard wired to a little plastic enclosure, so it doesn't seem replaceable. The heater is about 13yrs old, so I don't want to put much into it before considering replacement (I assume the expected life is less than 20 yrs), but if there is an easy, cheap fix, I'd love to try it. Thanks in advance. Last edited on Tue Jan 27th, 2009 06:31 am by briegg |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 12:17 pm |
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2nd Post |
ROBBYRIG
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It's very possible that the inducer motor is not pulling enough air to close the pressure switch.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 02:04 pm |
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3rd Post |
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briegg Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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Is there an inducer on a water heater? If so, would you have any insight as to where that animal might be on this unit and how to test it? Also, if this is not the best place for a water heater question - I'll re-post it in the correct forum - I was a little unsure of where to post, but my water heater is near my furnace, and it makes things hot. Last edited on Tue Jan 27th, 2009 02:52 pm by briegg |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 01:14 am |
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4th Post |
Bobice
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Your heater : http://homeappliance.manualsonline.com/mdownloads/f918341a-6e8e-41b4-85be-5cde688317b9.pdf
____________________ Retired US Army Refrigeration Specialist / NYC Board of Education HVAC/R (Retired) 40 Years HVAC/R service, sales,installations. a tragedy has happen to me : http://web.me.com/zenzoidman/Bobice/ |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 01:31 am |
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5th Post |
Bobice
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ROBBYRIG wrote: It's very possible that the inducer motor is not pulling enough air to close the pressure switch.This is not DSI, no inducer motor.
____________________ Retired US Army Refrigeration Specialist / NYC Board of Education HVAC/R (Retired) 40 Years HVAC/R service, sales,installations. a tragedy has happen to me : http://web.me.com/zenzoidman/Bobice/ |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 01:34 am |
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6th Post |
Bobice
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STANDING PILOT IGNITION The thermocouple is the pilot's, well, co-pilot! It is the electronic device that senses if the pilot flame is hot enough to sustain burning the gas fuel from the burner. If the thermocouple thinks it's safe, then it keeps open the main gas valve located in the pilot assembly. If the thermocouple does not sense enough heat from the pilot flame (such as when the pilot is out), then the thermocouple shuts off the gas valve to the burners. How the Thermocouple Works So what is this thing and how does it work? Well the thermocouple (technically called a thermocouple junction) is a device that contains two metal wires welded at the ends and placed inside a protective metal case. The thermocouple sensor is found at the business end of the pilot flame and is designed to be placed in the hottest part of the flame. The other end is connected to the pilot valve body. As the thermocouple heats up, it produces a small amount of electricity and when it gets hot enough from the pilot, send a signal to open the gas valve by using a solenoid operated by a 24 volt transformer. The thermocouple calls the shots, and by converting heat to an electrical signal, it allows the gas valve to open or close. Once the gas valve is open, gas is then constantly supplied to the pilot and as required for the gas burners (as called for by the thermostat). If the pilot goes out, then the thermocouple gets cold and produces no electric signal to open the gas valve's solenoid and the gas valve shuts off the gas supply to the pilot and burners. Re-Lighting a Pilot: PREPARATION The steps involved can vary slightly depending on your furnace model and pilot valve type, so if possible try and find the instructions inside the furnace door cover or in the instruction manual. Two of the most common types of pilot valve body assemblies either have a red reset button and a gas valve or no reset button and a valve knob that can be depressed. But whichever type you've got, if you have an older model furnace with a standing pilot (flame is lit all the time) then this is the basic procedure.
To actually light the pilot proceed as follows:
If you've followed the previous steps on lighting the pilot and it still does not light after, or will not stay lit, then you probably have a problem with the thermocouple or an adjustment needs to be made to the pilot. Pilot Has a Weak or Irregular Flame If the pilot lights but the flame is a weak yellow flame, it will not get hot enough to heat the thermocouple to its set point allowing the gas valve to open. A natural gas flame should be a bright blue with the tip of the flame having just a tinge of yellow. A propane flame should have a bluish green flame with a tinge of yellow at the tip. The flame should be strong enough to hit the thermocouple tip about 1/2 inch from the tip end. If the flame is weak or shaky looking, check to see that a breeze or draft is not blowing on it. Adjusting the Flame There is usually a small screw on the pilot valve body that will adjust the flame. You may have to refer to the manufacturer's instructions to find the screw. Turn the screw as needed to adjust the flame throw. Yellow Flame A yellow flame is caused by lack of air and incomplete combustion. It can be caused by a dirty pilot tube tip. Split Flame This is caused by dirt in the pilot tube. Take a needle or small nail and gently clean the tube. Flickering or Wavering Flame A flame that flickers is usually caused by a draft. START-UP AND CHECKOUT Adjust Pilot Flame The pilot flame should envelop 3/8 to 1/2 in. (10 to 13 mm) of the thermocouple/thermopile tip. To adjust the pilot flame: 1. Remove the pilot adjustment cover screw. 2. Turn the inner pilot adjustment screw clockwise to decrease, or counterclockwise to increase the pilot flame. 3. Always replace the pilot adjustment cover screw and tighten firmly after completing adjustment to ensure proper operation.
____________________ Retired US Army Refrigeration Specialist / NYC Board of Education HVAC/R (Retired) 40 Years HVAC/R service, sales,installations. a tragedy has happen to me : http://web.me.com/zenzoidman/Bobice/ |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 02:14 am |
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7th Post |
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briegg Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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Wow - I appreciate the time you must have spent Bobice. Unfortunately, this does not resemble my water heater. The Rheem 21VP50 is a power vented model with a hot surface igniter (no pilot flame that burns constantly). I think the problem is either the controller (a Robert Shaw), the Gas valve, or some sort of obstruction in the vent. Really, I'd like some help in ruling out the first two to see if I need to disassemble the piping, which would be a huge task. Any help anyone could provide would be much appreciated.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 04:35 pm |
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8th Post |
Bobice
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http://waterheating.rheem.com/content/resources/documents/tech%20bulletins/1600%20Series/1602.pdf Does this help ?
____________________ Retired US Army Refrigeration Specialist / NYC Board of Education HVAC/R (Retired) 40 Years HVAC/R service, sales,installations. a tragedy has happen to me : http://web.me.com/zenzoidman/Bobice/ |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 06:53 pm |
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9th Post |
Bobice
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Is this a "Guardian Unit" ?
____________________ Retired US Army Refrigeration Specialist / NYC Board of Education HVAC/R (Retired) 40 Years HVAC/R service, sales,installations. a tragedy has happen to me : http://web.me.com/zenzoidman/Bobice/ |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 10:36 am |
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10th Post |
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briegg Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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I don't think this is a Guardian unit - when I look on the Rheem website, it seems like those are newer - the controller in the technical bulletin you sent is different from mine (mine is a Robert Shaw - this one is a Honeywell). The unit I have is at least 13 years old (the original unit installed in a 13 year old home). The model # is 21VP50-1. Thanks again Bobice for your help - I'm still not sure how to diagnose if it's a controller or Gas valve problem (or anything else for that matter). Last edited on Sat Jan 31st, 2009 10:37 am by briegg |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 01:41 pm |
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11th Post |
Bobice
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Try this : http://waterheating.rheem.com/content/resources/documents/tech%20bulletins/1600%20Series/1604.pdf
____________________ Retired US Army Refrigeration Specialist / NYC Board of Education HVAC/R (Retired) 40 Years HVAC/R service, sales,installations. a tragedy has happen to me : http://web.me.com/zenzoidman/Bobice/ |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 01:45 pm |
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12th Post |
Bobice
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Robertshaw Controler :http://waterheating.rheem.com/content/resources/documents/tech%20bulletins/1600%20Series/1603.pdf
____________________ Retired US Army Refrigeration Specialist / NYC Board of Education HVAC/R (Retired) 40 Years HVAC/R service, sales,installations. a tragedy has happen to me : http://web.me.com/zenzoidman/Bobice/ |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 01:52 pm |
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13th Post |
ROBBYRIG
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My eyes aren't as good as Reg's but I'm pretty sure I see a blower motor there in that link you just posted.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 03:01 pm |
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14th Post |
Bobice
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My fault. The first manual was a 21 VG50 standing pilot . Need my glasses .
____________________ Retired US Army Refrigeration Specialist / NYC Board of Education HVAC/R (Retired) 40 Years HVAC/R service, sales,installations. a tragedy has happen to me : http://web.me.com/zenzoidman/Bobice/ |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 03:09 pm |
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15th Post |
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RegUS_PatOff Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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ROBBYRIG wrote: My eyes aren't as good as Reg's but I'm pretty sure I see a blower motor there in that link you just posted. Bobice wrote: My fault. The first manual was a 21 VG50 standing pilot . Need my glasses .
____________________ The new repair forums==> http://appliantology.org RegUS_PatOff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPAY2LsKVEw my video production: “Easter Seals Walk With Me” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EBiLyYXMiA |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31st, 2009 06:20 pm |
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16th Post |
Bobice
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Scewy Wabbit.
____________________ Retired US Army Refrigeration Specialist / NYC Board of Education HVAC/R (Retired) 40 Years HVAC/R service, sales,installations. a tragedy has happen to me : http://web.me.com/zenzoidman/Bobice/ |
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