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DUET GHW9200LQ - Problem with Rinse Cycle  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Tue Jan 8th, 2008 01:56 pm
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JSGatSE
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More bad news....I tried the washer today with a 3,000 watt transformer/converter and a cold water cycle, and still got the same problem.

Any other thoughts?


Thanks again,

-Scott

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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 12:44 am
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trublshootr
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I think Keinokuroma is on to something. I don't know if the Italian system is a grounded system like the US with a "hot", "neutral" and "ground" conductors just at 220 instead of 115volts.  It's possible the transformer is causing a "floating" ground of possibly just a few volts.  If the low voltage electronics is grounded to the chassis that is now ungrounded could mess up the electronics.  If the Italian system has a ground conductor, then connect the washer ground (green) and the transformer secondary neutral (white) to Italy's ground.  This might do it since the washer worked Ok in the US and doesn't now.  Also the 1000W transformer is on the small side especially if the heater and motor run at the same time.  1000W is only 8.6 amps.  What is the amp draw on the nameplate and match the transformer to that.  Watts= volts X amps.  Good luck.

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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 04:23 am
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JSGatSE
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Thank you very much for the idea - I'm open to anything at this point.  However, I'm pretty much a novice at this stuff - so forgive me.  Could you please give me an "idiot's step by step" guide as to what I should do?  I am fine taking things apart, I just need to know exactly what I should do.

Thanks again,
-Scott

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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 05:43 pm
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trublshootr
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Ok Here goes.  What you are attempting to do is provide a ground to the washer through the transformer.  An ohm meter or continuity tester would be a GREAT help here to determine if you have a ground or not.  The informaiton you provided fo the transformer says it has a Shuko euopean plug so I'm assuming you are plugging it in to a Shuko outlet.  Checkout http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm#plugs_l 
to verify what plug / outlet you are using.

I recommend using a larger transformer, 1000 watts sounds to small for a washing machine. 1500 better, 3000 best.  To determine the best one, multiply the amps on the washer nameplate by the voltage (115) to get the MINIMUM watts and I would add 15 - 20%.

If you are using the round Shuko type plug, the outside contacts on the top and bottom of the plug are ground.  If you are using the flat "Italian" plug and outlet with 3 pins, the center pin is ground.  On the transformer ouput socket (American) the round pin / hole is ground (green wire) and the wide blade is neutral (white wire).
 
First thing is to take your continuity tester and see if the ground on the transformer input plug is tied to the ground on the output socket.  Put one probe on the outside contact or center pin of the transformer PLUG, and the other probe in the round hole of the American socket.  Ohm meter should read 0 or the continuity tester should light / beep if it is.  The next step is to see if the neutral wire is tied to ground on the OUTPUT of the transformer.  Continuity tester from wide slot to round hole.  You'll have to angle the probe of the tester to hit the side of the hole / slot to make contact.

If the input ground (plug) is connected to output (socket) ground and wide blade on output is tied to ground - then I don't know what the problem is other than maybe there is no ground to the outlet - which would require a local electrician to checkout.

If the input ground and output ground are not connected  then you will have to try to get into the connnections on the transformer and add a wire between the input and ooutput ground wires / terminals.  Usually the ground wire is green (US) or yellow with a green stripe (Europe).  If the wide blade is not connected to the round pin on the output, see if you can add a wire between the white and green wire inside the washer where the cord is attached.  Just remember to remove that when / if you bring it back to the States.  Hopefully that will take care of your problem.      Good luck.

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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 05:52 pm
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RegUS_PatOff
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It could be that since Italy is only 50hz instead of 60hz , the drum motor is turning slower and the motor controller doesn't like that.



 

Last edited on Wed Jan 9th, 2008 06:00 pm by RegUS_PatOff



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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 06:05 pm
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Keinokuorma
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I'm rather sure that the Italian system is very similar to other Yurupian systems. the chassis ground or PE wire is wired from the same potential point as the neutral wire at the fuse box, and it should be its own discrete line from there on, not to be swapped with neutral. That same point is also connected with a thick wire to the house foundations and/or a thick copper loop buried under the house.

Note that this ground line is relative to the house power supply, and not to anything that happens after additional transformers, whether it is a 230V to 2x60V in your hifi amplifier, or that 230V to 120V to adapt your washer, or something else. If it is a floating secondary, there is no true neutral wire for it. It may have L and N marked on the output, but the polarity doesn't really matter while it is floating and has no "comparison point" of ground. You will be designating a neutral line when you choose which end of the secondary winding is connected to the house ground.

Transformer power is calculated in VA (Volt*Ampere) which is not entirely analoguous to Wattage power. It is not good to match the VA to the load wattage too closely, more like VA should be at least 50% higher than your intended load wattage. Otherwise the output voltage may diminish and swell remarkably when the load current changes.

But I guess you could try grounding one of the secondary wires. If it makes no difference, we are looking for something perhaps completely different.

Last edited on Wed Jan 9th, 2008 06:06 pm by Keinokuorma



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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 06:21 pm
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RegUS_PatOff
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That's what I thought, it shouldn't need a ground wire to operate.

No current should normally run throught the ground wire.

but look at this wiring diagram (and sensed by the Motor Control Unit) :

(the diagram with heater is similar)

Attachment: WHIRLPOOL GROUND.pdf (Downloaded 6 times)

Last edited on Wed Jan 9th, 2008 06:22 pm by RegUS_PatOff



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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 06:22 pm
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Keinokuorma
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Reg,

This is a front loader AFAIK, which operates either with a DC drive brushed motor, or brushless synchronous motor with inverter... the network freq doesn't affect its function. The computer control runs on DC too.

But this wiring diagram at last makes me think that the machine would really benefit from the ground having connectivity to the power supply.

Last edited on Wed Jan 9th, 2008 06:27 pm by Keinokuorma



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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 06:26 pm
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I wasn't sure, looking at the 3 wire motor:

 

Attachment: Pages from duet ghw9200lq.pdf (Downloaded 6 times)



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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 06:45 pm
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trublshootr
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Thanks Keinokuroma for Yuropean slant to this.  Can't beat "Local" expertise.
I wasn't sure if the Italian system was grounded that way or not.  That is the same as US systems too which is what we am trying to duplicate through the transformer.  Sometimes the "electronics" power supply is "grounded" to the machine chassis.  If the chassis isn't attached to ground or "floats" can cause flakey operation of the electronix even if that potential is only a couple of volts.  If this is an isolation transformer, then the neutral to ground tie back at the panel is lost which could allow the machine neutral to float changing its potential to ground.  Since the Italian system isn't polarized, we don't know which lead is "neutral" so we try to ground the neutral after the transformer to make it as close to US as possible like your previous diagram for the stereo showed.  The washer worked in the US and supposedly the only difference is the power. The 50hz vs 60 hz may also have something to do with this problem too as suggested by RegUS.

I also think the transformer is too small.  VA is a better way to determine the transformer size, but usually US appliances are rated in amps so .....  Like you say all this might help or it's something else but you gotta start someplace.

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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 06:57 pm
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Keinokuorma
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RegUS_PatOff wrote: I wasn't sure, looking at the 3 wire motor:
Looks like a sync or async motor on inverter. Doesn't need to know what freq comes from the network, or if it's powered from 230V DC for that matter... the inverter generates triple phased voltage of appropriate frequency to operate the motor with desired speed.

Edit:

Of course, I meant 120V DC... the only thing that would still require AC is the drain pump, I guess... unless they put a DC motor there too... but the computer board and the inverter for the motor both use DC for their operation at some point.

Last edited on Sat Feb 9th, 2008 12:39 pm by Keinokuorma



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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 07:11 pm
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Keinokuorma
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Oh, BTW, as I re-read the topic, it does go through first wash, will drain, but not spin out the sopay water or add rinse water... right? this could be related to it not being able to determine if the load is balanced when going to spin.

Now if the tacho sensor, that senses the speed changes of the motor, uses a hall sensor or other delicate component, it may not be getting accurate readings if there is electrical interference... this is just my thought of this.



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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 07:15 pm
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trublshootr
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I'm not an appliance guru, but work lots on industrial equipment.  This sure looks like an inverter motor control running a 3 phase motor.  I know that  inverters are sensitive to grounding.  Don't know for sure what the grounding schematic / switches etc are all about but seems to confirm grounding is pretty important.  Now why does the washer run other cycles ok is for you appliance masters to figure.

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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 07:42 pm
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RegUS_PatOff
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Keinokuorma wrote: Oh, BTW, as I re-read the topic, it does go through first wash, will drain, but not spin out the sopay water or add rinse water... right? this could be related to it not being able to determine if the load is balanced when going to spin.

Now if the tacho sensor, that senses the speed changes of the motor, uses a hall sensor or other delicate component, it may not be getting accurate readings if there is electrical interference... this is just my thought of this.



or the hall sensors got damaged in shipping from the U.S.

Were the (4) "shipping bolts" re-installed before moving to Italy ?



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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 08:02 pm
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Keinokuorma
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RegUS_PatOff wrote:or the hall sensors got damaged in shipping from the U.S.

Were the (4) "shipping bolts" re-installed before moving to Italy ?

Good point, although the hall sensor(s?) would just rock along with the motor... don't know a case so far where those got damaged during shipping. The shocks or springs may have taken damage, though... BTW, were the shipping bolts REMOVED AFTER MOVING to Italy?



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 Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 08:31 pm
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What's it cost to ship a washer from the U.S. to Italy ?   :groucho:



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 Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 01:10 am
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Ran the diagnostics test this weekend on page 5 that you sent me in the PDF.  All went fine, I believe.  the only item I should mention is that C:05 (testing the "heater") went on for 10 minutes, and I finally just manually forwarded it to the next diagnostic test by hitting the Prewash option 2x.
Gentlemen, based on the above is it possible that we are dealing with a bad temp sensor or heater problem? Not that familiar with the Duet,but in some dishwashers(Friggy) the timer will stall out if there is a problem with the water temp. No mention was made by  JSGatSE(or did I miss it) of ohming out the temp sensor or heater element for continuity. Values are given in tech sheet for sensor.



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 Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 05:32 am
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JSGatSE
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OK, thanks.  I will try this grounding procedure today.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 05:34 am
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JSGatSE
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Guys, I've tried it with a 3000 watt transformer (which based on previous posts should be MORE than enough) and it still doesn't work.

Keep in mind everything works, except the rinse cycle as the "selector" goes back and forth forever....

-Scott

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 Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 05:35 am
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JSGatSE
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yes, all other cycles run just fine.....:X

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