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 Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 01:46 am
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icanoe2
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Hello Beer drinkin' samurai Dude!

I've looked through the forums and have not found the answer to my particular dilema.
For the following discussion I have referenced Tech Sheet 131725600  9803

My wife  slaved away on the laundry all day today however found that the last load came out wet. When I responded to the service call I inspected the machine and found that it seems to fill and empty correctly however the drum never turns at any time during the cycle and hence the spin never operates.
I was hoping for a broken belt however this was not to be the case.:(

Upon removal of the rear panel I can see the timer clicking through the cycle and I can also hear other relays picking up (seemingly from the mysterious white box - funny, I thought that these were supposed to be black). While investigating I found the hidden troubleshooting guide inside the chasis however this turned out to add to my confusion.

Step four of the troubleshooting instructions discussed checking timer contact 11 to 11A. Is this at the board level? (inside the white plastic case).
The troubleshooting instructions also discuss checking voltage levels at the two plugs on the speed control unit (one four pin and one nine pin) however some of the pins they list are not terminted in the plug (pin 3 and pin 9 have no connection on the 9 pin plug). The wiring diagram which I found seems to also indicate that there should be a connection at these points.
C1.9 = TACH and C1.3 = BRN to a contact at terminal 24.
I hope you have a schematic or this will all be greek.

I hope that you can help me with this.
If you require further information I am at your becon call.

Prost dude!;)




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 Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 09:17 am
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Keinokuorma
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I'm not the Samurai, but I'll try to shed some light here. Usually, if there is no tumble, no spin on a horizontal axis washer, I tend to like to first check the motor brushes. On this kind of a machine, the motor control unit is the other suspect, which lately seems to be of almost equal likelihood.

Anyway, on a quite new machine, MCU might be more likely, on older machines the brushes. Both assumptions are based on the fact thet the brushes wear at a quite constant rate proportionally to the use of the machine. Anyway, they are assumptions, and the brushes may wear out on a new machine, as well as the MCU can fail at an older age and there can still be plenty of brushes left.



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 Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 10:21 am
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Does the door lock light come on?  Does the door actually lock?  No door lock lock, no drum movement. 



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 Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 10:53 am
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icanoe2
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Thanks for the help.

In regards to the motor, I presume that it is A.C. so I don't believe that it would have brushes. I thought that perhaps it might be a dead spot with insufficient torque to turn the drum but after removing most of the load and even trying to help it out by turning the drum by hand I had no luck.

When it comes to Pilsners its tough to beat the original Urquell. I have never tried Bergadler however and will have to take your word for it for now. I am also quite fond of Bitburger.

Samurai:

Yes, the door locks and the door lock light comes on. I assumed that since the timer ran and the relays seemd to turn on and off that the door lock was not interupting the cycle.

Attachment: piclogo_bitteeinbit.gif (Downloaded 68 times)



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 Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 11:04 am
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AccApp
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The washer drum is driven by a DC motor with brushes. Lots of past posts to search from. If the timer is sending voltage to the control board, either the control board is bad or the motor is shot. The timer on these also controls the tumble direction. If the drum never tumbles in any cycle I'd look real closely at the tech sheet and perform the tests as indicated.



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 Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 02:16 pm
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icanoe2
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AccApp:

Thanks. It's interesting that they would use a DC motor.

I'd look real closely at the tech sheet and perform the tests as indicated.


In regards to your above statement I will re-iterate from my original post.

"Step four of the troubleshooting instructions discussed checking timer contact 11 to 11A. Is this at the board level? (inside the white plastic case).
The troubleshooting instructions also discuss checking voltage levels at the two plugs on the speed control unit (one four pin and one nine pin) however some of the pins they list are not terminted in the plug (pin 3 and pin 9 have no connection on the 9 pin plug). The wiring diagram which I found seems to also indicate that there should be a connection at these points.
C1.9 = TACH and C1.3 = BRN to a contact at terminal 24.
I hope you have a schematic or this will all be greek."


Any advice regarding this?

Should I scan and include the tech sheet instructions and schematic?

Would it help to send a digital photo?

Thanks in advance.

icanoe2



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 Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 02:26 pm
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Keinokuorma
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The motor design WILL work with AC too, although a motor designed for pure DC will perform poorly. With little modifications to the design to adapt to the impedance as well as the pulsating torque, the motor type becomes the universal motor.

Yes, Urquell is a fine brew too, but quite expensive around here. Lidl has recently replaced Bergadler with Perlenbacher, which isn't as good... Schwaben Bräu is fine too, and much cheaper than most domestic brews. I used to have the Baltijos beer in my avatar... dark, foamy, lovely... although I can't say that it could have become a flavourite at its current pricing.

icanoe2 wrote: In regards to the motor, I presume that it is A.C. so I don't believe that it would have brushes.

When it comes to Pilsners its tough to beat the original Urquell. I have never tried Bergadler however and will have to take your word for it for now. I am also quite fond of Bitburger.

Last edited on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 03:12 pm by Keinokuorma



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 Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 08:00 pm
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Keinokuorma
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If you're baffled by testing the MCU, test the brushes. That will be one obstacle out of the way wheter it solves the problem or not.

Check which two wires go to the brushes. Remove the respective plug from the MCU and measure resistance between the wires. Technically you'll be reading the resistance through the brushes and rotor windings... there should be a couple ohms, if there's some 5 to 10 there's at least some brushes left. If it's a few hundred or thousand, brushes are most likely completely out. In the latter case, it may be easiest to access the brushes after detaching the motor. However, if you have comfortable access without detaching the motor, don't detach.

Try to remove the brush holders with the brushes in them. If the brushes extend no more than a millimetre or two out of the holders, they're out. If there's a good 1/2 inch or more coming out, there's plenty left... if this is the case, reassemble and mount the motor, and concentrate on the MCU tests for now.

If the brushes were out, or you decide to change anyway, here's more info:
http://applianceguru.com/forum9/8670.html



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 Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2007 10:34 am
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icanoe2
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Thanks for your help thus far.

I will have a go at the motor brushes this evening.

Perhaps the attached will help you understand my dilema if the brushes are not the issue. As discussed previously, the troubleshooting guide is unclear to me in regards to Point 4 (where is this timer contact physically) and step 5 (there is no pin 3 connection on the plug)


Since I cannot seem to attach two documents or paste into this message I will put up another post to show a photograph of the wiring.

Regards, icanoe2
 

Attachment: SCN_200703080743510000000D.pdf (Downloaded 6 times)



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 Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2007 10:36 am
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icanoe2
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Here is a photo of the wiring connection harness under question.

icanoe2

 

Attachment: IMG_6277.jpg (Downloaded 57 times)



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 Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2007 10:58 am
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AccApp
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Looking at the speed control portion of the wiring diagram, we see that the two connectors are referenced as "C1.x" and "C2.x" with x being the wire position. C1 is the nine pin connector and C2 is the four pin. Going down the line, C1.1 is open (not used), C1.2 is purple, C1.3 is brown, C1.4 is red, C1.5 Pink w/black tracer, C1.6 is blue, C1.7 is open and C1.8 and C1.9 (the tacho-generator leads) are yellow and yellow w/white tracer. Looks like you had the 9-pin upside down when looking for test points. Go nuts and report back.



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 Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2007 11:40 am
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icanoe2
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Oops! I guess that's why I am an apprentice.

Thanks, I should have been standing on my head! I'll try turning the machine upside down.;)

I'll try it again and report back.

icanoe2



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 Posted: Thu Mar 8th, 2007 12:06 pm
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AccApp
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icanoe2 wrote: Thanks, I should have been standing on my head! I'll try turning the machine upside down.;)

I got a call a while back, machine of your vintage, was brand new but had been stored for years before being used. Complaint was "shaking like crazy". I pull off the front panel and the pistons of both shocks were out of their bodies. Only possible way this could have occurred was that the shipping bolts had been taken out and the machine was turned upside down. Guy insisted it didn't happen, maybe not while he was around but I know it didn't leave the factory like that.



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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 02:31 pm
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icanoe2
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After troubleshooting it looks like it is the motor that is the problem and also it looks like it is the brushes.

Three questions:

1) Why is one brush so bady worn and the other in quite good condition? Worn one is black on the running surface and the other is a shiney grey colour?

2)I would like to be able to test the motor further to ensure that there are no additional problems which would cause issue #1. Is a test proceedure available?

3)Sine the local appliance shop would only sell a complete motor ($225.00 + tax) :yikes: can I order one from this site?

Thanks, icanoe2

 

 

 

Attachment: IMG_6286_01.jpg (Downloaded 48 times)



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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 03:03 pm
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AccApp
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icanoe2 wrote:  

After troubleshooting it looks like it is the motor that is the problem and also it looks like it is the brushes.

Three questions:

1) Why is one brush so bady worn and the other in quite good condition? Worn one is black on the running surface and the other is a shiney grey colour?

2)I would like to be able to test the motor further to ensure that there are no additional problems which would cause issue #1. Is a test proceedure available?

3)Sine the local appliance shop would only sell a complete motor ($225.00 + tax) :yikes: can I order one from this site?



1. The motor operates in both directions but the final high speed spin is always in the same direction and that is why the one brush gets the brunt of the wear. I have swapped the brush holders to test the motor temporaily. You might be able to bring the brushes to an electrical motor shop and get them matched up.

2. Since the brushes are not readily available as a stock part, a new motor would surely clear up any motor problems.

3. Go right ahead and order the motor if you don't feel like trying to get replacement brushes.



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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 09:04 pm
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Keinokuorma
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The motor operates in both directions but the final high speed spin is always in the same direction and that is why the one brush gets the brunt of the wear. <snip>
This can be one possibility... although both brushes are similarly angled to the commutator... and would be ground at a similar angle. Probably more like the two brushes never being cut out of entirely homogenous material. I've seen a case where the other brush was way out, the other almost intact after one year of use. The longer one didn't stick in the holder or anything. The new set wore out very evenly, and it was the other brush this time that was first to be out. I could have put in just one brush, and leave the almost good one in place. Various weardown habits can happen even on a single direction motor. Uneven spring force can be another contributor to the phenomenon.

PS. I scanned through Frigidaire and Kenmore part lists on RCC... and just out of curiosity the Asko listing too. Found no similar brushes, but they do look very familiar... Maybe they were differently "handed" than some asko brushes that I recently saw someone ordered.

Last edited on Sat Mar 10th, 2007 09:30 pm by Keinokuorma



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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2007 08:18 am
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Icanoe2, here's all the info you will need to change your brushes only instead of paying over $200 for a complete motor.

Read this complete discussion: http://applianceguru.com/view_topic.php?id=10873&forum_id=2&jump_to=66275



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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2007 08:57 am
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Keinokuorma
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Exactly the discussion I was thinking about.



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 Posted: Mon Mar 12th, 2007 06:00 pm
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Here is the brushes (added from the post mentioned earlier)



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