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Older Carrier HVAC

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Posted: Fri Feb 6th, 2009 10:04 pm

Bobice
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Time for this old fart to use my glasses.

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Posted: Sat Feb 7th, 2009 01:44 am

papollonia
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" T-stats are cheap enough ... "

Good because i am cheap person!!!

Thanks for your advice, will buy one on Saturday

Posted: Sat Feb 7th, 2009 04:23 pm

papollonia
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Ok, I bought a new t-stat, prior to installing it, I figured let me see if the unit will work if I hold that loose wire to the connector... Well the nothing sparked or blew up!!! The Draft Inductor went on, but not gas ignite.

I need to run out for a bit will perform the steps below when i get back..
FYI: Prior to all this everything was work fine, but hey things break!!!

Bobice wrote: http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/95-0000s/95-6486.pdf
Also read :

Problem: Your furnace will not ignite the gas to produce heat for your home. When a furnace has a bad ignitor what I see most of the time is the following sequence of operation:
1. Thermostat calls for heat. 2. Draft inducer motor starts. 3. Pressure switch attached by a small plastic or rubber tube senses the negative pressure produced by the draft inducer and closes. 4. Draft inducer runs for 30 seconds to a minute before you hear a gas hissing sound. The ignitor did not glow, the flame sensor (a small metal probe about 1/8" in diameter, with a white porcelain base) does not sense the flame, so after 8 to 10 seconds the hissing sounds stops with no ignition of gas to heat your home. Your furnace shuts down and goes into a lock out condition until you turn your power switch back off and on again. Then the sequence starts all over again with no ignition of the gas.

Solution: You probably need to purchase and install a new ignitor. I would suggest that you inspect your ignitor closely for cracks. Make sure you do not touch the ignitor with your bare hands. If you do not visually see a crack, then you could have a furnace control board problem or a limit, rollout switch problem. The furnace's control board might not be supplying the voltage to the ignitor. If your furnace lights and the gas stays on for 8 to 10 seconds, then shuts right back off, then you need to clean your flame sensor with light sand paper or steel wool. You might need a new flame sensor, but most of the time they can be cleaned an will work well after cleaning.

Also check the time delay relay TDR in diagram on page #14

Posted: Sat Feb 7th, 2009 10:15 pm

Bobice
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:phone:

Give us ab up date will ya.

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Posted: Sat Feb 7th, 2009 10:38 pm

papollonia
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I just got in and it about to get dark!!!!

But I did try it one more time,,, Draft motor goes on then blower fan,, I let it run for a good while like 15 minutes... the draft motor and blower fan is still on.. No gas igniting..

I will do what you posted on Sunday and get back to you all..

Hey it went up to 68 today and only going into the high 40's tonight, then back to high 60's on Sunday...

Sure beats teens and high 30's!!!!

Thanks again...

Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 03:07 am

papollonia
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Bobice:

I had some time today.

I inspected the ignitor... It looked good, no cracks..

Then I looked and found the TDR: How do I test this?

Is this the Furnace Control board?

Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 12:16 pm

Bobice
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The double Orange and double Brown are your coil (24V).
The Black wires are power (220V).

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Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 12:33 pm

RegUS_PatOff
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... and those Terminals look very rusty.

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Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 01:57 pm

papollonia
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Bobice wrote: The double Orange and double Brown are your coil (24V).
The Black wires are power (220V).

And that is the tdr wires?

Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 01:59 pm

papollonia
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RegUS_PatOff wrote: ... and those Terminals look very rusty.
SO (I will cut the power off) and then them first prior to replacing anything.....

Thanks

Posted: Wed Feb 11th, 2009 10:00 pm

Bobice
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Soooooooooooooooo

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Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 12:20 am

papollonia
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Thanks for checking on me.

Sorry!!!

Temps have been in the 70's during the day and not bad at night.
Sort of had lots of work this week (which when your self employed, when it's there, it is good!!)

Ok back to the task at hand:

What would you recommend me doing next?

Here is what I was thinking of doing:

Test the tdr? (What is the best way to test that out?)

Test the Furnace Control Board? (What wires am I testing?)

Test Limit Roll Out Switch? ( I need to find that one!!! )

FYI: I took a picture of every thing i could see in the furnace,, so i can show whatever you want...

Thanks

Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 09:45 am

Bobice
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Last edited on Thu Feb 12th, 2009 09:46 am by Bobice

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Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 03:30 pm

papollonia
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??????

Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 03:49 pm

Bobice
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Troubleshooting Direct Spark Ignition Systems

Flame Rectification Is Vital Knowledge For Gas Heat Troubleshooters.

This article deals with flame rectification as it applies to direct spark ignition (DSI) modules. They are manufactured by a few different companies — Fenwal, Honeywell, Robertshaw, and White Rodgers, to mention a few.
The procedures for DSI flame rectification are pretty much the same for all manufacturers. It is a good idea, however, to check the specification sheets for the particular manufacturer’s equipment you are working on.
One of the primary uses for DSI systems has been on some power gas conversion burners. The initial problems with DSI systems have been eliminated by today’s technology — such things as multiple-try systems and what is called “soft lockout” (where the system will attempt several tries at ignition and, if it fails to ignite the burner, the system will shut down for 60 minutes, then go through another series of tries). This has prompted a comeback of DSI use with some manufacturers.

DSI Components And Specs

Standard DSI systems include the following components:
· A system control module that contains the electronics for regulating the system’s sequence of operation;
· A dual valve combination control (or two in-line single valve gas controls) that provides for positive gas shutoff and control of the main burner gas;
· Ignition hardware that provides for spark ignition of the main burner and monitors the presence of the main burner flame; and
· Auxiliary controls that complete the system — temperature controller, high limit control, transformer, etc.

DSI Control Modules

Honeywell DSI control modules include the S825A, B, C, and D; the S87A, B, C, and D; and the S89A. All modules are for low-voltage (24 VAC nominal) application on gas-fired furnaces.
When powered by a suitable 24-VAC, 60-Hz transformer and activated by the system’s temperature controller, they perform the following functions:
1. Check for a false flame condition (short to ground) before each startup. If a false flame condition is present, the module does not allow startup.
2. Generate a potential of 30,000 V (open circuit) at the spark igniter for direct ignition of the main burner.
Note: The S89A does not include a spark generator circuit. The S89A has an internal relay for activating a separate spark generator for ignition of the main burner.
3. Open the main valve(s) of the gas control(s) to allow gas to flow to the main burner.
4. Sense the presence of a main burner flame and discontinue ignition spark. If the burner fails to ignite within the trial-for-ignition period, the module goes into safety lockout.
5. If there is a loss of power, the systems will shut down safely. Startup is initiated when power is restored.
6. If there is a loss of the main burner flame, the trial for ignition is repeated. Safety shutdown occurs if the flame is not re-established within the trial-for-ignition period.

Gas Controls For DSI

The American National Standards Institute (ANSI) requires that all new DSI-equipped gas-fired appliances must have dual gas controls for positive shutoff of the main burner gas. This requirement can be met by using any of the following methods:
· By installing a dual-valve, “VR”-type combination gas control in the gas supply piping .

· With a direct burner ignition valve , where the direct spark or hot surface systems use the same valve, and the two main valve operators work simultaneously under the control of the electronic module;
Note: For direct burner ignition, there is no pilot; leave the plug in the pilot outlet.

Ignition, Flame-Sensing Hardware

Ignition and flame-sensing hardware for DSI systems is available in several configurations:
· Separate flame sensors and spark igniters;
· Combination spark igniters and flame sensors that are mounted on a common bracket; and
· A single electrode igniter-sensor.
Generally speaking, the separate flame sensors and spark igniters are used together, or the single electrode igniter-sensor is used alone. However, some appliances use a different combination of these components; for example, an igniter-sensor for ignition and a separate flame sensor and spark igniter for flame sensing.
Whatever the combination, the system must have components, or a combination of components, for spark ignition and flame sensing.

Check Safety Lockout

1. With the system power off and the temperature controller set to call for heat, manually shut off the gas supply cock.
2. Turn the power on to energize the control module; begin spark ignition; immediately start timing.
3. Determine the number of seconds to safety lockout (spark cutoff). It should not exceed the time specified by the manufacturer.
4. After spark cutoff, manually reopen the gas supply cock. No gas should flow to the main burner.
5. Reset the system control module as described here:
· If the control module goes into safety lockout, it will remain locked out until the system is reset.
· To reset the system, adjust the temperature controller below room temperature, wait 30 seconds, and turn the temperature controller up to call for heat. Normal ignition should occur.

Final System Checkout

Start the system and observe operation through at least one complete cycle to make certain all controls are operating safely, according to the manufacturer’s specifications.

Last edited on Thu Feb 12th, 2009 03:50 pm by Bobice

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Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 08:51 pm

papollonia
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BOBICE:

Thanks for the great info.

Let me read it over

Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 09:08 pm

Bobice
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:rah:

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

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Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 09:11 pm

Samurai Appliance Repair Man
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Great job and awesome topic! :party:

:party:

Bobice, if you like, you can post your DSI troubleshooting writeup as a separate topic so other apprentices can find it more easily.

Last edited on Thu Feb 12th, 2009 09:12 pm by Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 09:16 pm

papollonia
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I could not have gotten this far without BOBICE's help..

I will update you guys.....

Thanks Again

Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 09:17 pm

Bobice
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Whatever you say O'Sensei :coolblast:

:coolblast:

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