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| Soldering copper tubing | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Sat Dec 9th, 2006 03:40 pm |
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1st Post |
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jb8103 Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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Every now and then this comes up, and it's a skill I can only envy, because I've never been able to do this. I got some copper tubing and fittings and the tools to practice with. I cleaned the ends with my shiny new wire brush. I put on the flux with the little flux brush. I stick the fitting on the tube. I fire up my shiny new propane torch and adjust the flame to a nice configuration. I apply the heat to the joint, getting a little green flameout, and hold it there for about 20, 30 seconds. Right so far? Then I touch the solder to the joint, opposite the side I'm holding the flame to. According to Scripture, the solder should melt, cling to the fluxed tubing, and wick itself neatly into the joint. What actually happens is the solder melts, balls up and drips off onto the floor. It's like the tubing is repelling the solder. Happens every time I've tried it. This inability to solder is having serious detrimental effect on my self-esteem. Not to mention the impression on my wife. She gave me...The Look. You know. How can I get these tubes to stick together and put the love light back in her eyes? Last edited on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 07:19 pm by jb8103 |
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| Posted: Sat Dec 9th, 2006 03:55 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Pegi Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology 
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Hummm, sort of hard to explain without knowing exactly what you are doing and how....when we braze the copper lines in the window units we have to use the acetylene torch and 15% silver solder....we do not need flux unless connecting different metal like copper to steel....sounds like you are not getting the copper hot enough to let the solder flow, but do not know what type of solder you are using either...the copper needs to glow bright cherry red before putting the solder to the copper so it will flow....perhaps you are trying to do something else I am not failure with however....there is different hardness in the copper for different applications, like plumbers use different kind of copper compaired to what is used in air-conditioning...this takes different type of heat source and solder..believe plumbers do use flux because of the different copper and solder used....perhaps others can shed more light on this when we know what type of copper and solder you are using...
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| Posted: Sat Dec 9th, 2006 04:15 pm |
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3rd Post |
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jb8103 Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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I'm using plumber tubing, not the AC tubing. Solder and flux is whatever the Home Depot had right there in their plumbing supplies. Maybe I have to use a hotter gas torch setup, I know I'm not getting the tubing to cherry red. I thought plumbers used ordinary propane. I have seen that other kind of torch/gas recommended, something used with oxygen, but it's not as hot as acetylene. I can't remember the name right now, I think it's MAPP gas?
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| Posted: Sat Dec 9th, 2006 04:16 pm |
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4th Post |
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Southern Master Appliantologist
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Plummers do use flux (my son is a plummer) to allow the solder to adhere to the copper joint by cleaning it. I'm not sure what your doing wrong but you need to heat the entire joint, not just one side, especially with a propane torch. Depending on the flame of your propane torch you might not be getting the joint hot enough, it should be red hot (30 seconds does not seem long enough for a propane torch). Also there should not be any water in the pipe near the solder joint. I use MAPP gas if there is alot of copper pipes connected near the joint since it gets hotter then propane. Last edited on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 04:19 pm by Southern |
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| Posted: Sat Dec 9th, 2006 07:16 pm |
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6th Post |
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jb8103 Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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Looks like the consensus is: I'm not getting it hot enough, and the silver solder is recommended. Back to the basement, and much thanks.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10th, 2006 02:26 am |
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7th Post |
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exsearsguy Sublime Master of Appliantology
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Cleanliness is next to godliness in soldering. CLEAN! Ahammer's scotch brite is excellent! Flux the male and give a twist if you can,then the outside of the joint.Light your torch(be patient if you're using a propane torch),keep the flame moving all over the joint. Your flux should change a little in look(not real familiar with plumbing soldering but it's essentially the same) as the joint heats up. Then start lightly touching the solder to the joint and keep the flame moving. When the joint is hot enough it will melt the solder and pull it into the joint.CLEAN,did I mention clean! The joint is what actually melts the solder,not the flame. If you do it right all you have to do is just touch the joint with the solder quickly and that's it.Like ahammer suggests practice a few. A joint with the male fitted in from the top is a good joint to start on.Be clean,good fit up(not to tight,not to loose) flux and proper heat,it's hard not to make a good joint.CLEAN, did I mention clean!
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10th, 2006 11:48 am |
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8th Post |
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jb8103 Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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I like it here. This is a great forum. It'll be a while before I can practice and put this advice to use, since I'm doing a job out of town.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10th, 2006 12:06 pm |
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9th Post |
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nickfixit Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology 
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I would switch to Mapp gas, the extra heat helps alot. I also would use sandpaper or a scotchbrite pad. The wire brushes don't seem to work well, and I think they hold some of the stuff they remove and leave some on the next fitting you work on. It was easier with the real lead solder. Nick Last edited on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 05:42 pm by nickfixit ____________________ " Giving numerical data to Sears management is like giving a monkey a machine gun. No one knows for certain what will happen, but you can be sure of two things... It will be real messy, and only the monkey will be unharmed" |
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10th, 2006 01:35 pm |
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10th Post |
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Keinokuorma Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology 
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There are plenty different solders for soldering copper... tin based, lead based, copper based, bronze alloys... various silver, zinc etc. content... Tin and lead solders can be done with propane, and don't even need so much heat, BUT there's a big but coming. For plumbing, you shouldn't use solder that contains lead. You may need to settle with phosphorus copper solder and acetylene torch (the main soldering method plumbers use here). Mixing highly different alloys for plumbing, you have the risk or corrosion on the more electronegative metal. If you use lead solder on copper, lead will be dissolved into the water. This will be poisonous, and add up to the gloop-up factor related to water-borne minerals. If you use a high silver content, copper may be dissolved from around the joint. Either way that will gradually weaken the joint. Tin based solder may become brittle in cold conditions, so it is of no use in refrigeration, especially evaporator side. Bronze solder is recommended, there are grades that can be soldered with propane. If you are just beginning your plumbing career, you may be easiest off completing your job with bronze bead joints. They are a bit expensive, but they are the easiest way to go for a beginner, and because they need no heat, they're quite safe to do too. Just remember to leave joints to accessible areas if you need to tighten them. they can be used on various tubing types including plastic and iron. If you need to change from iron tubing to copper, it is recommended that you put a piece of plastic tubing between the two metals. This will slow down the corrosion on the iron side. Best option in an iron plumbed house would be to do additional plumbing with plastic all the way, although it will be expensive.
____________________ "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." - Ken Olson, Digital Equipment Corporation (1977) |
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10th, 2006 04:10 pm |
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11th Post |
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jb8103 Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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Sounds like we're actually talking about brazing.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10th, 2006 08:48 pm |
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12th Post |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology 
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Yes, when you're dealing with tubing, you're brazing. If you're wondering about soldering copper tubing using the same techniques as soldering electronic components on a circuit boar, I don't know of any way to solder copper tubing using the same mechanical techniques used in electronics. I do, however, have a nice little handout (attached) which explains basic soldering techniques which you or others may find useful. Attachment: How_to_solder_1.pdf (Downloaded 29 times)
____________________  If I've helped you with your repair, please consider supporting my flavorite charity: http://beer.fixitnow.com |
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10th, 2006 09:24 pm |
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13th Post |
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jb8103 Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man wrote: Yes, when you're dealing with tubing, you're brazing. If you're wondering about soldering copper tubing using the same techniques as soldering electronic components on a circuit boar, I don't know of any way to solder copper tubing using the same mechanical techniques used in electronics. I do, however, have a nice little handout (attached) which explains basic soldering techniques which you or others may find useful. Saved! That calls for a round of brewskis, on me. http://www.fixitnow.com/beerfund.htm
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10th, 2006 11:40 pm |
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14th Post |
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man Fermented Grand Master of Appliantology
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jb8103 wrote:Saved! That calls for a round of brewskis, on me. Sometimes, in my semi-lucid moments, before my medications kick in, I get lucky and give a good answer. Mucho domos for the brewskis! 
____________________ If I've helped you with your repair, please consider supporting my flavorite charity: http://beer.fixitnow.com |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11th, 2006 12:25 am |
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15th Post |
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Keinokuorma Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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Right, brazing might be the better word... perhaps the limit of soldering and brazing can be put between tin/lead solder and copper content solder. Some people put it between the methods: solder iron or torch. I have performed both methods of soldering with tin alloy on copper tubing. Of course the iron method isn't satisfactory on large pieces, and cannot be recommended to a plumbing job, because the alloys contain lead. Technically, brazing is still part of soldering, because the pieces being joined aren't getting melted like when you weld something. Many people (even professionals) over here talk about just soldering, and the materials determine the method. Like said, the prhosphorus copper can be considered the copper plumbing standard. copper tubing can be joined by bronze, and this is recommended if you need to join steel and copper. Note that when using tin solder on copper in high temperatures like with the torch, some of the alloy will penetrate the copper surface and form a bronze alloy. This will happen on your solder iron tip too (which is made of copper and not iron). Especially cheap solder tips seem to corrode and get a golden look. Copper is added to many tin and lead solder grades to hinder this process.
____________________ "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." - Ken Olson, Digital Equipment Corporation (1977) |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11th, 2006 04:20 am |
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16th Post |
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jb8103 Senior Apprentice Appliantologist
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Domos to you all, and Merry Christmas, too!
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| You have chosen to ignore ahammer48. click Here to view this post |
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15th, 2006 10:31 am |
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18th Post |
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nickfixit Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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Keinokuorma wrote: If you are just beginning your plumbing career, you may be easiest off completing your job with bronze bead joints. They are a bit expensive, but they are the easiest way to go for a beginner, and because they need no heat, they're quite safe to do too. Just remember to leave joints to accessible areas if you need to tighten them. they can be used on various tubing types including plastic and iron. Are you referring to what we in the US call "compression fittings"? Nick
____________________ " Giving numerical data to Sears management is like giving a monkey a machine gun. No one knows for certain what will happen, but you can be sure of two things... It will be real messy, and only the monkey will be unharmed" |
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15th, 2006 06:40 pm |
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19th Post |
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Keinokuorma Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology
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probably, "pronssihelmiliitin" or "puserrusliitin".... or whatever each tech/plumber/fumbler decides to call them. Last edited on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 08:55 pm by Keinokuorma ____________________ "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." - Ken Olson, Digital Equipment Corporation (1977) |
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15th, 2006 10:20 pm |
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20th Post |
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AccApp Fellow, Academy of Sublime Masters of Appliantology 
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Have you seen the fittings sold here as "Sharkbite" these things are amazing and have saved my butt many times. Well worth keeping a few on the truck. Not sure how well they'd work around a boiler long-term, I only trust time-tested methods for that. Keino, anything like that make it's way to the "swamp"?
____________________ "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. http://www.fixitnow.com/beerfund.htm |
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| ApplianceGuru.com: The Samurai Appliance Repair Forums > Do-It-Yourself Appliance Repair Help > Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning (HVAC) > Soldering copper tubing | Top |
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Apply the flux to the outside of the pipe, the inside of the fitting, and the outside of the joint once you put it together.