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KitchenAid Superba Oven KEBC107KSS0  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 04:11 pm
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bearshead
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 My oven died: no sign of life at all. I checked the thermal fuse, but it seems to have power on both sides so I am assuming that that means that it is OK. What should I try next?
My wife was slow cooking something (200degrees) and we THINK that some foil may have touched the element, anyway there was a "pop" a flash and a puff of smoke, and then nothing at all: no error codes. Whatever happened caused one of the main circuit breakers to the house to blow.

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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 04:25 pm
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RegUS_PatOff
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When you say the thermal fuse has "power on both sides", where are you measuring to ?

Check to see if the thermal fuse has voltage across it when in the BAKE mode.

It shouldn't

Last edited on Sat Jan 19th, 2008 04:28 pm by RegUS_PatOff



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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 04:30 pm
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bearshead
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RegUS_PatOff wrote: When you say the thermal fise has "power on both sides", where are you measuring from ?

Check to see if the thermal fuse has voltage across it when in the BAKE mode.

It shouldn't
I can't get it to bake or anything else at the moment! I tested the terminals on both sides of the fuse: if it has a live current going in and coming out that would mean that the fuse is OK wouldn't it? (Pink wire going in on the left, Yellow and Orange wires coming out on the right)

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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 04:35 pm
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RegUS_PatOff
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bearshead wrote: I can't get it to bake or anything else at the moment! I tested the terminals on both sides of the fuse: if it has a live current going in and coming out that would mean that the fuse is OK wouldn't it? (Pink wire going in on the left, Yellow and Orange wires coming out on the right)



not if you're measuring voltage to NEUTRAL or ground, you have to measure across it, or check it with an ohm meter with the power disconnected.

OK, if the oven isn't in any mode, the your readings could be valid.


KEBC107KSS0 Tech Info


gotta go.. I'll be back about 9 PM

 





Last edited on Sat Jan 19th, 2008 04:43 pm by RegUS_PatOff



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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 04:46 pm
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bearshead
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Thanks. I'm afraid that I only have a voltage tester, so can't do the tests you suggest at the moment. I do have a spare fuse and so could just try it out, however it is a $50 item, so I want to be sure about this before I do (if it isn't the problem I could take it back). Can you please explain how, if this thing is a fuse, and the other posts about it suggest that when it blows the oven goes completely dead, then how could it show power on both sides? Am I missing something here??

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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 05:05 pm
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bearshead
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"OK, if the oven isn't in any mode, the your readings could be valid."
If so where else should I be looking?

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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 06:44 pm
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Keinokuorma
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bearshead wrote:  Can you please explain how, if this thing is a fuse, and the other posts about it suggest that when it blows the oven goes completely dead, then how could it show power on both sides? Am I missing something here??

This may be complicated. But, you have two live wires to the range, both roughly at 115V against Neutral... and roughly 230V between them. (Not trying to confuse you, in some cases you could be having roughly 208 V between the two, but it's OK).

Now in the normal situation, if the fuse is OK, there is roughly 115V from both sides to Neutral, right, because it doesn't cause much voltage loss. The element should be heating then. But, if the fuse is open, there's no current through the heater. Therefore there is no voltage loss from the heater either, and you will be able to measure the OTHER live potential right through it on one side of the fuse. because your meter doesn't tell the phasing of the voltage, you can't reliably tell which is which.

You could carefully try and short the fuse and try to power it up shortly. If it comes alive then, your fuse is blown. Don't leave the fuse shorted for a prolonged time. If you find that the fuse sorts the problem out even partially, change it.

By reading your problem, it is rather sure that the foil touched one of the heater terminals and tripped the breaker, and very likely blew that fuse too.

---

In reference to another haphazard hand sketch, a simplified wiring of a fuse and heater, 3 cases:

1) Both fuse and heater are good. L1 is found on both sides of fuse, 0V over fuse, L2 is on the other side of heater, 230V over heater. Current in the system determined by heater wattage.

2) Fuse open. L1 is found on other side of fuse, L2 on both sides of heater. No current through system, 230V over fuse, 0V over heater.

3) Heater open. L1 found on both sides of fuse, 0V over fuse. L2 found on other side of heater, L1 on the other. 230V over heater, no current through system.

Attachment: fuseandheater.jpg (Downloaded 82 times)



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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 07:12 pm
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bearshead
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Many thanks for this. I tried shorting the fuse, but no luck. Does that mean that the element is blown? If so why no error codes (or anything else) on the control panel?

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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 07:28 pm
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bearshead
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Is this significant?: Looking at the control panel circuit board, the board is slightly discoloured at these points: R4 & R5 (left side middle) and D27 & R2 (Top Right corner). It is not serious blowout discoloured, just slight browning of the board by these things.

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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 07:52 pm
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bearshead
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One more thought: With the fuse shorted (which I did by attaching together the wires going to the fuse) I turned the power back on, and there was no sign of life on the control panel. Do I need to do anything else, or if it was going to work would it do so immediately?

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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 08:02 pm
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bearshead
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OK, another test: I completely disconnected the fuse and tested each wire going to it. The pink wire on the left has current, the orange & yellow wires on the right do not. When these wires are all reconnected to the fuse there is power in the orange & yellow ones. To me that sounds conclusive that the thermal fuse is OK. Is there another fuse somewhere that I am unaware of?

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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 08:30 pm
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bearshead
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I know I am only a grasshopper here, so I hope that these multiple postings are allowed, but I may have made a discovery:

There are 3 heater elements in this oven: Broil (at the top), Convection Bake (at the back) and Hidden Bake (at the bottom). At the moment there appears to be live current at all 4 terminals for each of the Broil and Hidden Bake elements, however the Convection Bake only has current at the right hand (yellow & Pink wires) terminal which connects directly to the thermal fuse. The other terminal (single yellow wire) shows no current. This connects to the control panel where there is a block with 4 wires (Yellow, Red, Orange, Blue) underneath 4 dark grey plastic boxes marked K6,K7,K8,K9.  Only the Yellow wire is not live. Does this mean there is a problem with the K6 box? and what is that?

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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 10:08 pm
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appl.tech.29501
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There isn't a problem with your fuse.

Yes, that is a relay for convection bake and that means your board is bad however, that wont effect your bake and broil. if you have 120 volts at each terminal of the bake and the broil then you should have 240 volts accross the 2 bake and the 2 broil terminals if you dont then your elements are bad.

 



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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 10:41 pm
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bearshead
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appl.tech.29501 wrote: There isn't a problem with your fuse.   Good!
Yes, that is a relay for convection bake and that means your board is bad
So I have to replace the whole control panel? or can I just replace that relay?

however, that wont effect your bake and broil. if you have 120 volts at each terminal of the bake and the broil then you should have 240 volts accross the 2 bake and the 2 broil terminals if you dont then your elements are bad.
  I seem to have 120v at each terminal of these 2 elements, but since there is no life on the control panel I can't use them. Is there any way to kickstart the control panel for those two elements, or are we out of commission until I replace the control panel?

Many thanks for your help!

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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 11:17 pm
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Keinokuorma
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That was only about your suspicion of the fuse, which wasn't the problem, as it turned out. I tried to explain different reasons why your fuse would have live voltage on each side, but still possibly be blown.

ApplTech is very probably most right, so far it appears that if you haven't got a separate relay board, the next place to look is the main control. Sad to say so.

BTW multiple posts are OK, far better than editing a very old post. Edits will go unnoticed by people who watch topics passively by email notifications.

Last edited on Sat Jan 19th, 2008 11:26 pm by Keinokuorma



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 Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 11:28 pm
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RegUS_PatOff
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I missed the first sentence in your first post: "no signs of life at all"

Sounds like a bad controller.

Could you post a picture of both sides of the board ?  200 Kb max each

Last edited on Sat Jan 19th, 2008 11:29 pm by RegUS_PatOff



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 Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 03:03 am
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bearshead
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Here is a shot of the whole panel

Attachment: panel.jpg (Downloaded 47 times)

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 Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 03:06 am
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bearshead
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This is a close up of where I think the problem lies.
The pink, orange and blue wires on the right are all live, the yellow one on the left goes to the convection bake element and is not live.
You can also see the discolouration of the R4 & R5 that I mentioned earlier/

Attachment: leftCU3.jpg (Downloaded 44 times)

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 Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 03:10 am
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bearshead
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Here is a blurry shot (hey, its Saturday night, and there's nothing in the oven, cut me some slack! :D) of the discoloured bits on the right of the panel (D27 & R2) if that helps at all.

Attachment: rightCU2.jpg (Downloaded 44 times)

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 Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 04:04 am
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RegUS_PatOff
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You could have some burned open circuit trace paths on the bottom side.

Either way, it doesn't look good for the controller.

Last edited on Sun Jan 20th, 2008 04:05 am by RegUS_PatOff



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